QL_714

So if this renowned blogger gave tips on how to hack an account and steal the points this would be Chase's fault?

HikerT

Well, Chase has appointed him as one of their spokespeople and officially directed cardholders to his blog for "tips on how you can make the most of your Chase Sapphire Preferred card". TPG has told readers that it is OK to transfer points internally to anyone. So yes,it is their fault to have told readers to go to his blog for tips and then cancel people for having followed those tips.

lkar

This is a specious argument. You can't compare things that are obviously bad, and criminal, with things that are random and that one would not have an ability to know one way or the other except by reading rules. I am with HikerT. If you are going to officially tout a guy and say he can help people figure out how to use the card, I think you need to live with what he says to the public on rules interpretation matters.

Marathon Man

In reading some of these I would also suggest that if Chase promoted its card through someone, and told that someone to get everyone to sign up for the card, then they are effectively making that person an "agent" of sorts.

It should be in the best interest of Chase to be sure the person is saying and doing what is right according to chase as long as they are allowing him or her to tout their products and services.

It should be in the best interests of the person to do the right thing and post proper information, but in the end, Chase must 'authorize it' if the person is indeed serving in this role.

And if they are serving in the role of some sort of authorized agent for Chase, then Chase needs to back what has been said. Customers will sign up for the card based on what they read on this effectively 'chase-authorized' blog as posted by this agent.

Customers will believe it, and will have signed up based on what they read (some may not have gotten the chase cards if they knew up front that some things were not really doable). Customers would believe they were duped by some company bait & switch if things go the other way. Of course the blog looks like the party to be blamed, and so Chase, if they were actually knowingly doing this, would be pretty swift for creating such a diversion, but in the end, it would be Chase who had set forth the idea that XYZ could in fact be done with the cards if people read the blog.

If Chase now busts those people who did what their own agent was Ok'd to tell them to do, it would be Chase who should bear the responsibility, or at least most of it. If i am reading all this correctly, that's at least how it seems to me.

They have the resources to control and track this stuff and to reach out to those they consider valid agents as stated here. If they claim they cannot control it, that's a farce. Sure there are many people talking about Chase cards on their blogs, and not all of the information is real or 100% kosher even if it does work for a while. But if this person and their blog were in fact real active 'agents' of chase in this capacity, Chase HAS to deal with it! They ought to want to!

They should start by re clarifying themselves and if T&Cs change, to keep the agent abreast of these things. Then they should honor whatever people who used this blog to get the cards and not reprimand those chase users for THEIR mistakes. Companies do that a lot these days (blame the customer/victim) because it's easier to do and they cant handle their own promotions and services.

Chase may not be at fault for all things here, but it seems to me that if they entitled someone to speak on their behalf, that was their blunder, not anyone Else's.

****

When I went to court against Cartera my case was much about the same kind of thing.

I bring it up because mine was also an issue where someone was not going to give me points because they thought I had gamed them, and now that their T&Cs had changed, they could use 'today's new rules to back their angst of yesterday.' A commonly used tactic that sometimes has an affect even though everybody sees it! Again, a third party was given license to do promo X and then all or one party dropped the ball claiming the customers gamed it and were therefore wrong.

I have no idea how it went on the back end, so I can only guess, but my theory is that Cartera figured they should finally give the miles and maybe they called UA and got them to now honor the promo bonus that comes with the Cartera miles postings. Since this all happened literally less than 24 hrs from the time of my court case, AND i also got other Cartera miles on another airline on the same morning, I think my theory holds some water. I had been pressing UA myself to credit for missing bonuses on my purchases and had written them and sent in all sorts of material previously, but one customer on hold for hours a few days before the court date in one last ditch effort to get some results talking to an overseas low level CSR trying to explain this to someone who has broken English is less likely to get anywhere than a huge shopping mall partner entity and vendor.

It is then possible that since the judge had said a decision would be mailed, Cartera's lawyers could have contacted the court and said something like, "We have made sure MM got his miles" and the court now could end the case NOT in my favor. I have no idea of this, but I can also conclude that Cartera didn't want bad press as it were, and the judge may not have wanted to be someone to set any precedent for how to assign money to a mileage case. I had sued for just shy of $7k in court, the max you can sue for in SCC in MA.

Much of the above is pure speculation on my part--I know that. But I still could not figure out HOW I left court with neither side yet knowing the outcome (or at least not me for 2-3 days) but that suddenly, all my miles were there. Just like that, no holds barred.

I would imagine that if people here successfully fight against Chase with regards to this blog thing or anything related, they may end up with a similar instance. Something like, here are your points. End of story, no explanation, no nothing.

QL_714

I mean this in a nice way but any chance we can get the short version?

Marathon Man

From me?

Why, it's not even possible for me to type less than nineteen words in a single post!

erasmus99

Not sure if this will help anyone, but I posted this in CC re: the difference between Chase to Chase transfers and transfers to FF programs:

In my view, the UR Terms and Conditions do not restrict transfers to other people's frequent flyer programs at all. Here are the Terms and Conditions I am going off. I am assuming these are the terms and conditions, as they are the only ones I could find. The FAQ posted in the earlier posts in this thread do not appear to be terms and conditions, but their own interpretation of things. If there are more or different terms and conditions, perhaps someone could post them here.

Here is the relevant section on point transfer to frequent traveler programs:

Where does it say that you can only transfer to your spouse or partner under those rules? I don't see it anywhere. The part that I have bolded above, I submit, merely refers to the fact that the frequent flyer number provided actually has to match the account. When they do not match, and there are "discrepancies" per the last term listed, the transfer will take 4-6 weeks, since it cannot be done instantly. It doesn't say it won't transfer. In sum, the terms don't specify you cannot transfer to anyone other than yourself

This argument is strengthened when you look at the Chase to Chase transfers. There, Chase to Chase transfers are restricted per the terms and conditions (NOT THE FAQ ALONE) say:

In other words, you can only transfer to yourself or to spouse/domestic partner for intra-chase transfers. There is no similar clause in the frequent traveler transfers.

As noted earlier, Chase did post this in the FAQ section:

As I stated before, this is not a term and condition that was agreed to by you or anyone. It is a frequently asked questions. It is pretty much just whatever they want to say the rules are.

Even so, let's break it down:
"The features are not intended to allow transfers to third parties other than a spouse or domestic partner of the cardmember." They are not intended to allow. But they, in fact, do. So what if it isn't intended for this purpose? It doesn't mean it is restricted. You are not intended to earn thousands of bonus points buying credit cards at office depot, but it is still permitted.

"Transfers to unauthorized third parties or any other abuse of the Ultimate Rewards program may result in suspension or termination of the ability to participate in the program and forfeiture of points already earned." Who is an "unauthorized third parties". It doesn't say or define. It doesn't define an authorized third party, nor does it define an authorized person. And who defines what party is authorized or not?

In sum, point to point transfers are prohibited; transfers to other people's FF programs are not. That is my 2 cents.

HikerT

Good summary. I would agree external transfers are not specifically prohibited by the T&C. That said, we have all heard stories of Chase shutting people down for no reason other than they aren't considered "profitable" customers, so there is no safe harbor. My guess is Chase is finally realizing how much the program is costing, and it is more than anticipated due to more people transferring to external partners and less people buying gift cards. To reduce the cost, it would appear they are trying to stop people from selling points, as selling would logically lead to the most efficient utilization. Leaving the door open with external transfers will likely lead to similar utilization, and similar repercussions, not necessarily by Chase but potentially the external partners closing accounts.

tasnam

So would it be fair to say:

Person A wants to transfer to my FF account from their CSP rewards points account (as a gift for free)
Person B wants to transfer to my FF account from their CSP rewards points account (as a gift for free)

Results:
Both of their accounts are at risk of being closed (they both are ok with it as they have back up ccards)

My FF account is NOT likely to be closed AND the points are NOT likely to be removed from my FF acount.

(I supose the WORST case is my FF account is #1 miles removed #2 closed (unlikely) but I have not read one instance on this board of #1 happening even with SP being closed)

Am I reading all these threads correctly to understand my (our) risk which might happen?

jatink129

Well, technically yes. But there's an easy fix- just ask that person to add you as an authorized user. That's it.

Also- MOST of the crackdown by Chase has been directed towards people sending/receiving UR points to someone OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE.

Whereas the rules from transferring UR points to a FF account allow transfer to FF account belonging to you, your household member or an authorized user or employee.


On the other hand the rules from transferring UR points between Chase accounts state :
"Transfers may only be used to combine points belonging to the same individual or business in the program; or for the purpose of enabling spouses or domestic partners to combine points."

eknock007

My wife is planning on closing her CSP to avoid the AF. She has about 65k points that she wants to transfer to my account. My question is if the transfer is done online, how does Chase know that we are married. Do they somehow check to see if our billing addresses match? The last thing we need is for Chase to just shut us down without asking any questions. Maybe the way to avoid any account closures is just to do the transfer with a live rep. We do plan on keeping my account open and adding her as an AU.

Marathon Man

My wife has a hyph last name so chase may not even believe anything but heres the deal:

Like you and like most, we are not in their cross hairs yer fine

Til you are

jatink129

What he said.

Marathon Man

Yup
And often its all luck and luck

I recall just after graduating college I was dating a girl who once said to me these very words: "there are no rules... Til you break one." We didnt last more than two months lol

yOyOYoo

I wonder if paying the annual fee will prevent shutdown in the future.