Richelieu

I wonder what the IRS or equivalent administration would think of this practice. It's a way to transform a business expense in something more like an income. But after all, how would they know.

miles4all

Going along with Watson's opinion that we are talking about theft here; I think the reason that some people would not pay this monet back to their employer is that it is almost impossible to prove. It seems in general that the threshold of peolpe to become a thief is lowered when the chance of getting caught is zero.

So the subject is black and white for me, but the fact that you wont get caught makes it greyish to some...

Now my question to you Watson is;
Do you consider the airmiles your employees get to belong to the company? I suppose not, because they are an established system and people expect to be allowed to keep them when they join.
Now i am booked in C-class and get downgraded to Y; As compensation i am offered 200.000 miles. Do you want an employee to give you these miles?

If not, then I advise all salaried workers to ask the airline for airmiles instead of cash

My conclusion to the above is that the question on what belongs to the company and what doesnt is not always that easy to answer when it comes to this subject.

whughes3

Where I work, we now have to hand in our boarding passes as part of our travel expense claims, apparently in reaction to a few cases where this sort of thing has occurred. I tend to agree with B Watson: it's really tantamount to stealing.

Richelieu

In fact, the employee would have no mean of giving the miles back to the company. Most airlines program state that miles are not transferrable, belong to the airline, etc.

B Watson

Don't bet on it - some companies, including most U S Government agencies require disclosure of FF miles and force their staff to book business flights using the points.

I certainly do not advocate this, but it does happen. Of course, the points are still "owned" by the employee

eamus

I can top that. My company has an arrangement with a certain oneworld airline to operate a pool of miles. The gist is that where the expense is intra-company (ie. not recoverable from third parties) you book it through a certain co-ordinator rather than the usual travel desk and the miles earned go into a pool owned by the company. The company then uses the miles to pay for other non-recoverable flights to the extent seats are available. Miles earned on flights that are recoverable expenses go to the passenger per accepted practice.

miles4all

Eamus,

Now the discussion really get interesting! So when you fly to a potential client you need to use airmiles from the pool or buy a ticket and give up the miles. When you fly to an existing client, you claim the fare back and the miles are yours to keep!

So your employers basic position is; 'Keep the miles, as long as i dont have to pay for it'

Do you mention this policy to potential clients? I suppose not!

eamus

Not sure why potential clients would care. The miles in the pool are not there for the company to spend on client-required travel any more than the company buys copying paper and hands it over to clients. The company is entitled to obtain the value of its internal expenses. The objection might be from a client who has a similar arrangement, ie. that they require travel to be booked through their system and the resulting miles go into their pool. I am aware of one other company that operated a system similar to ours, and they only recently cancelled it. Personally I think it is penny-pinching, but that's just me.

brenno

Remarkable. So what happens if you turn in your PYOB-form and were downgraded at the airport I(I typically print three boarding passes so nothing can go wrong).

nologic

IMO, if the employee decides to downgrade himself and travel less comfortably, he is entitled to the money in lieu of the comfort.

If he has a $70 per diem and spends $10, he should be able to keep the difference too.

The employer should be happy, because the pint of these travel policies is to control expenses, which they have done.

I can see the other side...but as an employer, I don't care if an amployee wants to take pocket my allowance and go to McDonalds over Lutece.

SPN Lifer

Since a change in federal law in December 2002, federal employees have been allowed to keep their own miles, including any earned previously. I posted more detail at the time in the United Forum.

HaydenLondon

I know this is an old post but I have this exact issue now, but have thought of things differently.

Many years ago I was in London on business and stayed and a very exclusive business hotel. After my stay, I realized that I had left a jacket at the hotel. I called and asked them to send me my jacket. A couple of weeks later my wife calls me from home and asks me if I was expecting a package from the hotel. When she told me it was here, I told her how relieved I was (due to the fact that the jacket was fairly pricey). Well when I arrived home, my wife was absolutely livid with me. In fact she was so livid with me that she actually left the house and went to stay with a friend and some family members over the next couple of weeks. What happened was that the package that the hotel sent me was full of very exotic female undergarments (that were not exactly new - to put it politely) and jewelry of considerable value. My wife assumed the worst (which was fueled by issues that we had dealt with earlier - which is completely my fault). My wife would not speak to me. Eventually, the hotel ended up calling my wife directly (as I had given them both of our numbers) and the hotel explained what had happened and put her in touch with the gentleman whose belongings we had received.

As you can imagine, I stuck it to the hotel big time and we ended up settling with the hotel (my wife had actually filed for divorce to give you an idea of how serious this matter became). The settlement included a full refund, one complimentary room for 18 months whenever we so chose, and cash of a considerable size.

With that story in mind, based on Watsons logic, all of those benefits belonged to my employer at the time and I have in fact stolen from them. Due to the sensitivity of the matter, I did not raise this with them. Do you really feel that this is theft?

I consider this point now as three weeks ago, I was on a flight where I received a considerable cash sum to be "downgraded". I would not consider the downgrade as "voluntary" as I was not given any option to retain my business class seat without delaying my journey by 24+ hours which was not possible due to business and professional commitments. I endured a 16 hour flight in a middle seat and minimal food as I was not prepared for this trip. It might also help you understand the fact that I am 6'5" and 265lbs. So I can assure you that cattle class is a big sacrifice on my part. I arrived just in time to coach my son's basketball team feeling and looking horrible.

I guess that it never really crossed my mind that I may be stealing from my employer (actually from my partners in this case). I feel like I was robbed of my personal time and commitments.

Am I that unethical, or somehow less moral than those who view this as so black and white.

pdsuk

Several companies that I have worked for have travel policies that explicitly forbid this (my bolding). The objective of the travel policy is not merely to control expenses but also to balance employee welfare (for want of a better term) as they have taken a decision to allow J class for certain flights

HaydenLondon

So are you saying that no policy means that the area is grey? I would tend to agree with this. Again, I don't agree that the issue is as black and white as those who posted earlier in this blog so indicated. I agree the issue has complete clarity if a company policy considers this point and gives direction.

dgwright99

Let me start by saying that I have quite high standards of ethics. For example, when I book a hotel rate that has extra bonus points included, I under-expense, in order to claim the lowest available rate at the time of booking.

However, I don't see this case as being quite so clear cut as some other posters. Vol DG comp is not really comparable with keeping FF miles or underspending on per diem - because both of those things are specifically allowed.

Clearly, if your company travel policy states that you must pass the comp back to the company, then to not do so is fraud/theft, and if the policy says that you can keep any comp then it is perfectly ethical to do so.

If there is no policy, then the intent of the company in letting you fly premium is significant here - whether the issue is status/comfort/etc vs getting you there in good shape to dive right into work as soon as you arrive.

For example, I'd argue that if you arrive on Saturday, and aren't expected to work until Monday, and only senior staff get to fly premium that the intent is significantly on the status/comfort side. Similarly, if it is a return flight that gets you in Friday/Saturday, the employer derives little if any value from your arriving fresh and fit. OTOH, if you are arriving at 6am and expected to go directly to a meeting, then a significant part of what the employer is paying for is for you to arrive in the best possible shape, and that to take a vol DG for personal financial gain is at best highly questionable ethically.

Lets look at some comparable cases:

1 - If the flight is delayed/diverted/rerouted, and I'm given miles or other non-cash compensation ? How about if the compensation is cash or quasai cash ? AS gives out certs for late departure that can be redeemed either for bonus miles or for a discount on future travel.

My view here is that bonus miles are mine to keep, but if the compensation is both of significant value and cash/equivalent (or sach option is offered) then the comp should go to the company if this impacted my work, but not if it didn't. So, if I'm traveling home, and lose my Saturday to the situation being compensated for, then it is me that should be compensated. OTOH if the situation cases me to miss time at the office, or a customer meeting, etc - then the compensation is due to my employer

2 - Hotel room downgrade. I would expect to pay the lower rate, and maybe get some compendation on top. In this case, naturally the employer pays the lower room rate, but what about any additional comp ? What if I'm offered a choice of free parking or points ? This then comes back to the question of why the company planned to pay for the nicer room in the first place.

3 - I am compensated for some issue with my hotel stay.

For example, if I'm offered a free night, in most cases I should apply that to the stay, or a future business stay. If I'm offered any kind of compensation for an issue related to a meeting room - that should go to the company. However, if they damage my suitcase, or spill wine down my shirt at dinner, then any compensation is clearly due to me.