Complaints about Customs
Jul 29, 2010 | 1:43 pm
#466
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: yyz, ytz, (fly from BUF often)
Programs: Delta Silver, United Silver, Aegean Silver, Avis First
Posts: 125
What no one seems able to tell me is whether you are required by law to hand over your encryption password for your computer, i.e. if customs takes your computer and it has full-disk encryption, are you required by law to hand over the password so they can examine the computer? What happens if you say "I choose to not give you the password." Are you arrested and charged with an offence?
But those are my thoughts, not facts.
And if your going to go through the trouble of encrypting your entire disk, why not have a phantom partition as well.
Jul 29, 2010 | 2:03 pm
#467
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,849
What no one seems able to tell me is whether you are required by law to hand over your encryption password for your computer, i.e. if customs takes your computer and it has full-disk encryption, are you required by law to hand over the password so they can examine the computer? What happens if you say "I choose to not give you the password." Are you arrested and charged with an offence?
At least one judge has recently agreed with that interpretation:
American's computer, hard drives seized
Published Friday October 9th, 2009
$1,000 fine | Judge not impressed by behaviour at border
By Shawn Berry
Border guards are trying to determine what's on a laptop computer seized from an American man who refused to give them access to encrypted information stored on the device.
Carl David Todaro, 38, of Clarks Summit, Pa., was arrested by a Canada Border Services Agency officer Wednesday afternoon after he tried to cross into Canada at the Houlton, Maine-Woodstock, N.B., port of entry.
Todaro, who will be barred from re-entering Canada, appeared in provincial court Thursday afternoon and pleaded guilty to hindering a Canada Border Services Agency officer.
He was fined $1,000 and had his computer and two external hard drives seized for further inspection.
"The results of the examination will be turned over to U.S. authorities,'' said federal Crown prosecutor David Hitchcock.
Todaro, who told the court he works in the technology industry, told a border guard he was planning to visit family-owned land in Canada.
He declared only a phone and camping gear when he showed up at the crossing around 1:40 p.m. Wednesday.
That's when border guards noticed a bulge in his breast pocket where he had an external computer hard drive. A subsequent search also yielded a laptop and a second external hard drive.
When officers asked Todaro for access to the computer, he refused.
Hitchcock said Todaro told officers: "No, you will not be looking at my data."
Officers told Todaro that the Canada's Customs Act obliges him to give them access to information on his computer and they ordered him to log onto his computer.
"He typed a command," Hitchcock said. "There was information on the hard drives."
But the information was encrypted, he said.
"I certainly didn't delete anything," he later told the court.
Todaro pleaded guilty Thursday, but not before forcing a recess after being asked for his plea the first time.
"If hindering is keeping something in my mind, then I guess I agree," he said.
Judge Mary Jane Richards wasn't impressed.
"I don't accept that," she said, calling a recess so Todaro could again consult with duty counsel.
During the break, Todaro was told by duty counsel Edward Derrah that a guilty plea would likely result in the lowest fine, $1,000.
When the judge returned, Todaro pleaded guilty. But he said he doesn't think he should give out his password.
"I'm just a little bit confused at things," he said.
Todaro said he uses passwords to keep his data secure and away from other people.
"You'd be crazy not to," he told the judge.
Published Friday October 9th, 2009
$1,000 fine | Judge not impressed by behaviour at border
By Shawn Berry
Border guards are trying to determine what's on a laptop computer seized from an American man who refused to give them access to encrypted information stored on the device.
Carl David Todaro, 38, of Clarks Summit, Pa., was arrested by a Canada Border Services Agency officer Wednesday afternoon after he tried to cross into Canada at the Houlton, Maine-Woodstock, N.B., port of entry.
Todaro, who will be barred from re-entering Canada, appeared in provincial court Thursday afternoon and pleaded guilty to hindering a Canada Border Services Agency officer.
He was fined $1,000 and had his computer and two external hard drives seized for further inspection.
"The results of the examination will be turned over to U.S. authorities,'' said federal Crown prosecutor David Hitchcock.
Todaro, who told the court he works in the technology industry, told a border guard he was planning to visit family-owned land in Canada.
He declared only a phone and camping gear when he showed up at the crossing around 1:40 p.m. Wednesday.
That's when border guards noticed a bulge in his breast pocket where he had an external computer hard drive. A subsequent search also yielded a laptop and a second external hard drive.
When officers asked Todaro for access to the computer, he refused.
Hitchcock said Todaro told officers: "No, you will not be looking at my data."
Officers told Todaro that the Canada's Customs Act obliges him to give them access to information on his computer and they ordered him to log onto his computer.
"He typed a command," Hitchcock said. "There was information on the hard drives."
But the information was encrypted, he said.
"I certainly didn't delete anything," he later told the court.
Todaro pleaded guilty Thursday, but not before forcing a recess after being asked for his plea the first time.
"If hindering is keeping something in my mind, then I guess I agree," he said.
Judge Mary Jane Richards wasn't impressed.
"I don't accept that," she said, calling a recess so Todaro could again consult with duty counsel.
During the break, Todaro was told by duty counsel Edward Derrah that a guilty plea would likely result in the lowest fine, $1,000.
When the judge returned, Todaro pleaded guilty. But he said he doesn't think he should give out his password.
"I'm just a little bit confused at things," he said.
Todaro said he uses passwords to keep his data secure and away from other people.
"You'd be crazy not to," he told the judge.
Last edited by yyzvoyageur; Jul 29, 2010 at 2:13 pm Reason: Added details
Jul 29, 2010 | 2:28 pm
#468
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: yyz, ytz, (fly from BUF often)
Programs: Delta Silver, United Silver, Aegean Silver, Avis First
Posts: 125
A solid argument for a charge of "Hindering an officer" (Customs Act, section 153.1) could be made for someone who refuses to log in or to provide officers with a password, the penalty for which is a fine of not less than CAD 1000 and not more than CAD 25 000 and potential imprisonment for up to 12 months.
At least one judge has recently agreed with that interpretation:
At least one judge has recently agreed with that interpretation:
Jul 29, 2010 | 3:40 pm
#469
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Programs: United MileagePlus Silver, Nexus, Global Entry
Posts: 8,810
A solid argument for a charge of "Hindering an officer" (Customs Act, section 153.1) could be made for someone who refuses to log in or to provide officers with a password, the penalty for which is a fine of not less than CAD 1000 and not more than CAD 25 000 and potential imprisonment for up to 12 months.
Also interesting that the police need a warrant to go through your filing cabinets, but customs can go through your laptop without one.
Jul 29, 2010 | 10:11 pm
#470
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: yyz, ytz, (fly from BUF often)
Programs: Delta Silver, United Silver, Aegean Silver, Avis First
Posts: 125
Customs have special powers. I can't say I entirely agree with either the charge or the interpretation of that rule/law.
Jul 30, 2010 | 3:28 pm
#471
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YVR
Programs: AC E75, SPG Plat, HH peon-by-choice (ex Gold)
Posts: 8,090
Jul 31, 2010 | 12:39 am
#472
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: YBG, YUL, TXL
Programs: AC Aeroplan, LH M&M, BA Executive, FI Saga Club
Posts: 122
Earlier this week, one of the columnists in La Presse wrote on her experience being submitted to a secondary at YUL after declaring 8 bottles of wine (4 each, they were a couple). She then wrote another article on the readers reaction to her story.
In a third text on the census controversy, she quotes an email sent to her by a CBSA agent:
"You were aware of the risk undertaken by bringing back so much wine and I will ask you the question: was it necessary to buy that much?"
So, basically, the customs question our right to shop abroad. CBSA is a threat to Canadians personal freedoms.
You might wanna check out the following links with the help of Google Translate if necessary:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...-la-douane.php
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...core-bravo.php
In a third text on the census controversy, she quotes an email sent to her by a CBSA agent:
Vous tiez au courant du risque engendr en rapportant autant de bouteilles (de vin) et je vais vous poser la question: tait-ce ncessaire d'en acheter autant?
So, basically, the customs question our right to shop abroad. CBSA is a threat to Canadians personal freedoms.
You might wanna check out the following links with the help of Google Translate if necessary:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...-la-douane.php
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/chroniqueu...core-bravo.php
Jul 31, 2010 | 10:27 am
#473
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mostly Canada and the World
Programs: Several
Posts: 495
What no one seems able to tell me is whether you are required by law to hand over your encryption password for your computer, i.e. if customs takes your computer and it has full-disk encryption, are you required by law to hand over the password so they can examine the computer? What happens if you say "I choose to not give you the password." Are you arrested and charged with an offence?
Jul 31, 2010 | 3:02 pm
#474
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: YUL
Programs: Aeroplan
Posts: 446
The girl inspecting me at that time told me to enter my password. I turned the screen from here and she said 'you leave it where it is'. I said my password is confidential and I turned the screen anyway - she let me do it. Technically it is against the law for her to require my password unless she has a court order.
Can you explain what technicality you're referring to please?
Jul 31, 2010 | 10:51 pm
#475
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Programs: United MileagePlus Silver, Nexus, Global Entry
Posts: 8,810
You are required to allow her access to your computer so she can snoop around on it. You are not required to give her your password, in the same way you are required to open your suitcase if requested, but you're not required to give away your key.
Aug 1, 2010 | 12:53 am
#476
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,849
Aug 3, 2010 | 9:13 pm
#477
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: YXU/BOS
Programs: AC SEMM
Posts: 953
In the nexus office at YYZ to update some info. Sign in, looks like I am third or fourth in line. Agent calls a name, person responds and follows her to the counter etc. Now there is just me and a guy on his cell phone. Agent comes out, calls a name, no response. Calls again, no response. She calls my name and I follow her to the counter. Couple of minutes later, guy hangs up his phone, barrels over to me at the counter and starts hassling me "You took my place in line. You stole my spot". Agent kindly explains that he was on the phone. He turns and berates her "You gave away my spot etc". So clearly being on the phone now trumps all basic human etiquette. If it had been me, I'd have torn up his card on the spot. (On the other hand, it is nice to live in a country where you can be a total a**hole to a government official without fear. Just too bad when people take advantage of that freedom)
Aug 21, 2010 | 9:41 pm
#478
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC Aeroplan - Elite Status. DL Skymiles - Regular Status
Posts: 509
No major problems w/CBSA
Honestly, I fly for business on average 4 times/month... So I see the CBSA quite often..
I have nothing to complain about.. Most of the time they don't even ask me anything.. If they do it's "where are you coming from" followed by a welcome home.
Have I been previously asked some absurd questions? Yes. Though truthfully, the agents are there to enforce laws, not feel sympathy for a traveler who just got off a 10 hour flight.
Also, I noticed YUL agents to ask the most questions.. YYZ no problems, YVR is indeed my favourite though.. There's a citizen/resident line, and I was out of there in no time. Wish they had that at YYZ
I have nothing to complain about.. Most of the time they don't even ask me anything.. If they do it's "where are you coming from" followed by a welcome home.
Have I been previously asked some absurd questions? Yes. Though truthfully, the agents are there to enforce laws, not feel sympathy for a traveler who just got off a 10 hour flight.
Also, I noticed YUL agents to ask the most questions.. YYZ no problems, YVR is indeed my favourite though.. There's a citizen/resident line, and I was out of there in no time. Wish they had that at YYZ
Aug 22, 2010 | 5:24 am
#479
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: YYT/YYZ
Programs: AC*SE, AC*MM, SPG Gold, FPC Plat, HHonors Diamond, PC Plat Elite, R&C Club 5C, Hyatt GP
Posts: 2,201
Aug 22, 2010 | 11:24 am
#480
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC Aeroplan - Elite Status. DL Skymiles - Regular Status
Posts: 509
Now I recall the monitors being electronic, so they might change it according to the amount of passengers needing clearance.. I got there at approx 7 AM Pacific Time, and it was just us, and a flight from Tokyo, the hall filled up quickly.