28 minute domestic-international T5 connection... possible?
Feb 24, 2023, 1:38 am
#31
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere north of stateside...
Posts: 4,153
Unsure it would have helped the OP in this case, but the conformance time really should be reduced for passengers who haven’t checked bags. I could see the programming more difficult when multiple airlines are involved, but within T5 it should be doable.
It also strikes me that flight connections ground staff should have some flexibility when passengers have narrowly missed conformance and don’t have bags: “oh this person has 28 minutes and it’s an A Gates departure and there are no checked bags… override.”
For an airline that likes cost savings, you’d think this would be something they’d look at. Reducing even a couple of EU261 claims per day would fund additional agents to make this happen.
It also strikes me that flight connections ground staff should have some flexibility when passengers have narrowly missed conformance and don’t have bags: “oh this person has 28 minutes and it’s an A Gates departure and there are no checked bags… override.”
For an airline that likes cost savings, you’d think this would be something they’d look at. Reducing even a couple of EU261 claims per day would fund additional agents to make this happen.
Feb 24, 2023, 1:58 am
#32
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,818
I am all in favour of MCT and conformance being reduced, and I've taken advantage of some leeway on this, so "look, it's gate A11, just upstairs and around the corner after Weatherspoon, can you call Control and the gate please?" - then usually that does the trick if the agent isn't doing that anyway. However if I have read the above correctly, the gap was down to 16 minutes to A12, further over, and 10 minutes is supposed to be close down. So knowing that it takes a few minutes on the phone to resolve this, I think this is a bad example, it's not impossible, but too tight and too disruptive at this point.
Feb 24, 2023, 2:05 am
#33
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,203
I assume once the door is closed the gate staff can go to their next "job"? So holding the gate might delay another flight. But a system that takes all these data points into account and tells the staff how long to hold for and makes conformance dynamic shouldn't be very difficult to create
You can read more about the concept here https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...X.2021.1876461
As for the modelling used, I doubt post pandemic facility wide stakeholder staff shortages were envisaged, hence it is shooting stakeholders in the foot somewhat. As CWS mentions, there are interventions and mitigations, but it requires humans to be in agreement with that sort of decision.
Last edited by Sigwx; Feb 24, 2023 at 2:10 am
Feb 24, 2023, 6:18 am
#34
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Yes there is a bp check and yes there is conformance.
i fully expect once you take off, and if still estimating an arrival which is 28 minutes or less before the scheduled departure time of the onward flight, that you will have been already offloaded and rebooked on a later flight.
i fully expect once you take off, and if still estimating an arrival which is 28 minutes or less before the scheduled departure time of the onward flight, that you will have been already offloaded and rebooked on a later flight.
One of these times, I’m going to go in with a backup boarding pass (for a later same-day T5 flight) to clear the conformance check and make it to the gate while the gate is still open and busy for boarding of my originally booked flight — which BA tried to stop me from reaching by way of rebooking me and otherwise denying me passaged at the conformance check — and try to board as originally booked and checked in. I have just been too nice to concede so far on this.
I am all in favour of MCT and conformance being reduced, and I've taken advantage of some leeway on this, so "look, it's gate A11, just upstairs and around the corner after Weatherspoon, can you call Control and the gate please?" - then usually that does the trick if the agent isn't doing that anyway.
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 24, 2023 at 6:26 am
Feb 24, 2023, 7:24 am
#35
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Programs: Ba Silver ( for now!)
Posts: 776
It is very much a HAL driven initiative and will likely be coming to other euro and global hubs soon if not already. It is all controlled out of HAL's 'APOC' situated in the Compass Centre.
You can read more about the concept here https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...X.2021.1876461
As for the modelling used, I doubt post pandemic facility wide stakeholder staff shortages were envisaged, hence it is shooting stakeholders in the foot somewhat. As CWS mentions, there are interventions and mitigations, but it requires humans to be in agreement with that sort of decision.
You can read more about the concept here https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...X.2021.1876461
As for the modelling used, I doubt post pandemic facility wide stakeholder staff shortages were envisaged, hence it is shooting stakeholders in the foot somewhat. As CWS mentions, there are interventions and mitigations, but it requires humans to be in agreement with that sort of decision.
It is clever but not really in the real world ( your example above). things like "Such a predictive system would enable the PFM to resource immigration desks in advance of passenger surges, reducing the likelihood of queue breaches."
assumes immigration will do as asked which seems not to be the case as the operate in their own bubble.
Any system should also allow exceptions. Exceptions are of course a pain as they get abused, but when you can see the gate and that flight has been delayed there needs to be some level of common sense.
I am surprised ( staggered actually) that BA are not in ultimate control as it is their airline, their terminal and they who pay compo when the computer says no.
Thank you for your input and taking the time to reply
Feb 24, 2023, 11:21 am
#36
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,756
It has indeed all got a bit silly in the blame game dept of delay allocation. Conformance has become a slightly irrelevant concept since the pandemic due to severe staffing issues across the board, but when ramp teams are affected it just shoots the airline in the foot and alienates the customers. To ensure a delay isn't put down to 'you' or 'your department/work area', the relevant groups follow the critical time path as close to the letter as possible.
An example would be that there are 11 missing pax from the checked in total, we know 2 cleared conformance before deadline and were last 'seen' entering the lounge. The remaining 9 have now missed -35 mins cut off and are automatically offloaded. Of that 9, 2 bags have made it into the transfer system so we need to locate those and make sure they are no-fly listed. The others will end up being re-flighted when they show up in the system. However today we have now closed the gate on time and the aircraft door is closed, but the flight will have a 20 minute delay put on it as the loading team are late from another job as they are short staffed and have only just started their below wing processes. So we sit there for 20 mins and they load, within the last 5 minutes all 9 pax off two different flights have now presented their BPs and been denied travel through flight connections. The 20 mins is up and we've still got another 6 minutes to wait before the tug gets here so an additional 10 mins is added of the Estimated Off Blocks Time. That is additional time that could have seen the 9 pax accepted and boarded, with their luggage being the only element that might be delayed.
Welcome to the post pandemic daily reality. The theory on conformance works when fully staffed and only goes belly up on days of mass disruption, but there are bigger issues on those days regardless. Nowadays it is total pot luck.
An example would be that there are 11 missing pax from the checked in total, we know 2 cleared conformance before deadline and were last 'seen' entering the lounge. The remaining 9 have now missed -35 mins cut off and are automatically offloaded. Of that 9, 2 bags have made it into the transfer system so we need to locate those and make sure they are no-fly listed. The others will end up being re-flighted when they show up in the system. However today we have now closed the gate on time and the aircraft door is closed, but the flight will have a 20 minute delay put on it as the loading team are late from another job as they are short staffed and have only just started their below wing processes. So we sit there for 20 mins and they load, within the last 5 minutes all 9 pax off two different flights have now presented their BPs and been denied travel through flight connections. The 20 mins is up and we've still got another 6 minutes to wait before the tug gets here so an additional 10 mins is added of the Estimated Off Blocks Time. That is additional time that could have seen the 9 pax accepted and boarded, with their luggage being the only element that might be delayed.
Welcome to the post pandemic daily reality. The theory on conformance works when fully staffed and only goes belly up on days of mass disruption, but there are bigger issues on those days regardless. Nowadays it is total pot luck.
Feb 24, 2023, 11:23 am
#37
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,756
Feb 24, 2023, 12:31 pm
#38
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 2,126
One of these times, I’m going to go in with a backup boarding pass (for a later same-day T5 flight) to clear the conformance check and make it to the gate while the gate is still open and busy for boarding of my originally booked flight — which BA tried to stop me from reaching by way of rebooking me and otherwise denying me passaged at the conformance check — and try to board as originally booked and checked in. I have just been too nice to concede so far on this.
Feb 24, 2023, 12:38 pm
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2019
Location: FL390 or the iron way
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,663
The dinner was also rather down-at-heel, being self-serve with a limited selection. It wouldn't have looked out of place at Wormwood Scrubs to be honest!
UK261 claim submitted - let's see whether I get any response within 8 weeks. If not, next stop CEDR.
As it happened, I had just watched a video the day before where a flight reviewer was manually let through for a tight connection - and that was with them being an international arrival so having to pass through security. I therefore hoped that the same might happen for me.
Feb 24, 2023, 1:29 pm
#40
Join Date: Jan 2022
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 1,472
gor sorted out at the gate.
Feb 25, 2023, 1:37 am
#41
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: Mucci, BAEC GGL/CCR, Hilton Diamond, IHG Diamond Ambassador, Stena Gold
Posts: 1,094
That our flight from A4 didn't load until 15 minutes after I got there, and then was delayed a further 20 minutes before pushback didn't help, but did put his blood pressure up when we talked about it the next time we met..
Feb 25, 2023, 3:33 am
#42
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,818
Feb 25, 2023, 4:18 am
#44
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2019
Location: FL390 or the iron way
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,663
I'm getting rather more familiar with BA's list of mid-European evening departures than I'd like!
Feb 25, 2023, 4:33 am
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
Let us be clear: HAL does not force anything on BA here. It is entirely up to BA whether or not to accept a passenger who present themselves at the conformance point past the normal cut-off point. It remains squarely a BA decision, not a HAL decision. HAL provides the infrastructure that enables BA to take those decisions but the decisions are BA's.