bwaflyer

Just to add some facts to hfly's post. On a night stopping aircraft, out bound catering is stored in cool bags, which are stored in chilled galley stowages. Inbound catering for the morning is stored in chill boxes, the same design as used in boxes used to transport human organs. This will keep their temperature for around 24 hours. M&S spent a lot of time ensuring that the chill chain is maintained on board before allowing their products to be sold.

The odd Glass of potable water from the tap is fine, indeed I hand out many glasses every day, and I don't see trails of people collapsing afterwards. Mostly the water is uplifted in London for the round trip. We only uplift water at stations where it is regularly tested.

There is now a forecasting system to load the fresh food on board, since its introduction, (and I operate maybe 10 to 12 flights a week) it's fairly rare to completely sell out, but we may not have your first (or second) choice.

An Amsterdam and an Istanbul flight are loaded very differently. An Istanbul will have additional trolleys and canister of product loaded.

Bob isn't perfect (far from it), but then again, I still remember the endless complaints about the free food. Despite people's hopes, I don't think it's going away, they've saved a lot of money in catering, and planes are still full, and profits still high.

If you're desperate for a particular sandwich, and didn't pick something up in the terminal, ask the crew when you board if one can be put aside for you.

hfly

You spoke about your abundant experience flying to Band 4 countries (incidentally whatever the band, KBP has always been considered SHORT HAUL by BA internally IST has always been MID HAUL). So my point was that there are no BA flights to KBP, and when they were they were a significantly shorter distance than IST, and obviously this reduced service did not go down too well for KBP, did it?

As for the rest, some of us expect more from BA, don't we?

hfly

bwaflyer, human organs are not usable if just left in a chill box for 24 hours, if they are not kept cool, (i.e. the cooling changed or maintained) etc, the threshold is 6 or 8 hours. There is no "chiller" in your galley's, no matter what sophistry you use. By "around" 24 hours" are you actually trying to say 16 hours? Which is a duration incidentally which would fit every single other BA short haul flight BUT Istanbul...............I have witnessed crews NOT offering the majority of the food, several times, because it was beyond usable on this route in the exact same circumstances that I have highlighted. You know that too.

As for the uplifting of water, mostly doesn't cut it, does it, you just need to uplift once the wrong water and you have polluted the tank for the next 3-6 months. I will add that there is no such special testing that occurs as you state (yes your Manager's have told you that.........go speak with some airport and station managers for the real story). In any case, no one would collapse in front of you, but they might have a fever or the runs a day or two later based on your contaminated water.

Andriyko

The distance between LHR and KBP is 1,362 miles, while it's 1,550 miles between LHR and IST. You and I have vastly different opinions as to what 'significantly shorter distance' means. I flew both routes many times, and the difference in flying time is about 15 minutes. No matter how much you capitalize the words 'shorthaul' and 'midhaul' it won't change the minor difference in distance between the cities.
Also, FYI - there is no connection between the reduced service and BA's poor performance on the KBP route and it decision to close it. BA's direct competitor had introduced BoB 3 years before BA did. The market does not support the margins that BA wanted.

You can't expect from a company something that it does not want to give you. It will have been 3 years since the introduction of BoB in January. The concept is not going away. It's a waste of time to expect anything from BA other than what the airline is selling you. It's easier (and healthier) to work with what you have and plan accordingly than spend years criticizing a change with no chance of reversing it. You pointed out so many flaws with the onboard potable water and food stored overnight, but yet you did not mention how you're avoiding consuming either, and whether avoiding both on this specific route presents some sort of a challenge for you.

hfly

Yes that is true Andriyko, you are right, Ukraine is not really a top flight market, and like much of Eastern Europe is dominated by such airlines. As far as distance goes, that 200 or so miles does in fact make all the distance, as BA defines SHORT HAUL and MID HAUL based on the 1500 perimeter, not me. What is the block time for LHR-IST 4hr 20min? What is KBP 3h30? So we are talking about 20%, and over the 1500 mile barrier, aren't we? Having flown to KBP many times and IST more times than I can count, I find it amazing that you have only ever experienced a 15 minute flight time difference consistently?!?!? I mean, on any given day a flight might have good winds, and I suppose that those same winds would have also effected all flights going in the same direction.........but as you could not be on both at the same..............

Oh, how do I avoid it? Well Andriyko, I have probably flown this route more times in the last 2 weeks than most people (or perhaps you) have in their lives, one year I flew it more than 50 times, there is not a year in the last 30 that I have not flown this route at least a dozen times. So I have gone on the record here on FT many times in stating that while once upon a time I used to fly BA almost exclusively, over the last decade much of my business has gone to TK. In any case I should also note that probably 80% plus of my flying on the route historically has been in Business Class.

But what do I do on the rare occasion that I am flying BA in Y on this route, since BoB (which is a rarity)? Well as a BA Gold Card For Life member, I eat in the lounge if I am hungry, and grab a can or two of whatever I want for the flight. But really this is not the way a premium airline should operate on such a route.

ermis177

The 20% figure was communicated to me by a BA staff and I have given this information to hfly. So it must be true. Also someone had posted on a forum that about 70% of passengers in CW and F are not able to get their first meal choice. Don’t ask me to provide any source regarding these. It’s not my job. You are more than welcome to try and find all these sources. I have to say I am quite surprised you are questioning the 20%. You haven’t provided a single source for all of your stats and figures!

Joshm300

Thermos mugs also work very well for decanting a lounge G&T into, the ice won’t melt until well after take off if you have a decent one.

Andriyko

First of all, thanks for the poor attempt at being funny.
I have not provided a single specific figure or stats. Don't make things up or have a conversation with yourself if you want to do that.
If you're interested in the actual figures regarding passengers' preferences when they travel by air, you can seek out the latest IATA survey. It is the largest survey of its kind conducted every year by the industry body rather by a specific airline. That will be your source. I have referenced that survey many times, however, you conveniently pretend not to see that part. You're asking for a 'source' and yet you refuse to seek that survey out, which will be a good starting point.
More importantly, the assertion that most passengers do not care about meals and that BA has a high retention rate is supported by the bums in the seats. Not sure what other source you require. A written statement from each of those passengers? Asking for a 'source' as proof that passengers choose no frills airlines or that CW is a popular cabin when BA adds business class seats while other airlines remove them or when BA goes BoB and yet passengers do not flock to other airlines is ridiculous. Take a look at what's happening in the real world. That will be a good source as well. Being observant and analyzing passengers' behavior helps. You should try it.
As regards the choice of meals - cabin crew have repeatedly confirmed here that passengers not getting their first choice of meal is a rare occurrence. I am sorry that that does not reconcile with your imaginary lack of choice of meals 'confirmed' by a few anecdotes here.
People usually question things when something does not add up. Empty CW cabins and someone saying that CW is popular would not add up. Empty ET cabins and someone saying that passengers do not care about food would not add up. But it is not what's happening here, is it? The paranoid requests for a 'source' for something that's in plain sight must be some sort of a bizarre case of some people refusing to accept the reality.
If it comforts some to rely on the anecdotes here and to believe that people only want to fly with food, or that no one wants to come back to CW, or that no one gets their first choice of meals, or that 20% of passengers are able to buy BoB items, I can't help them, but I won't be wasting my time engaging in a discussion with children.

hfly

Except the fact that BA failed in KBP and has lost 90 percent of the market between Turkey and the UK sort of negates your claims doesn't it?

Andriyko

No, it does not. You can't jump to a conclusion based on 2 routes (let's add LED here and make it 3). KBP and LED were closed for commercial reasons. As far as KBP is concerned, there is no competitor that offers all the frills that lured the passengers away. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, PS had introduced BoB 3 years before BA did, and yet BA started losing passengers to PS even though it had remained full service until early 2017. KBP and LED had bad schedules (very early departures from LHR and late arrival into LHR, so not a lot of choice for connections). Frills or absence thereof played no role in the closure of these routes.

IST, KBP, LED are low yield, low fare markets (and very long rotations). It is not surprising that BA would rather utilize its aircraft elsewhere. A company can't lose a market it does not want to serve. Why utilize an aircraft on a KBP or LED rotation with low yield, when you can make twice or three times as much money on a shorter rotation to somewhere like NCE? It only makes commercial sense.

orbitmic

Indeed, it looks like at least for KBP and LED, BA’s strategy has flopped quite badly, or they would still certainly fly those routes especially as both have strong connection traffic potential.

all major competitors (LH, AF, TK, OS, KL, LX, etc) as well as smaller ones (LO, SK, etc) still fly them either year round or part of the year. This is a shame for many of us.

NoTiersForMe

Slightly OT, but as some or multiple people on this threat will know the answer down to the millisecond: does anyone have a date when the metro to IST opens? Multiple web searches on various sites just say early 2020. Thanks!

Andriyko

Before someone, who does not know the market, chimes in with opinions about what works and what flops on that market or what the connection potential is, I suggest they first look at the map to find where KBP and LED actually are and then spend a little time looking at the schedule that BA offered to see which connections were possible.
Take KBP. London is a natural connecting point for destinations at North America. The only connections that worked (that did not require an overnight in London either on the inbound or the outbound) were JFK, BOS and IAD. That's it.
BA had almost no shorthaul connecting traffic for obvious reasons (again, a map would be handy). The only shorthaul destinations that made sense were domestic UK and Ireland. All of them required an overnight in London on the way to KBP.
With almost no meaningful connections the flight only made sense for O&D passengers, but even those found it inconvenient due to the early departure from LHR. Why would anyone get up early enough to leave from LHR at 7:50am when they can leave from LGW at 12:20pm with PS (which charged more than BA did for the convenient schedule). Due to the distance and the time difference leaving LHR early did not get someone anything in Kiev as you'd realistically be in town only around 3pm.
LH and OS, for example, build their schedule around connecting passengers. Both carry a huge number of shorthaul connecting passengers (due to their convenient location). That is not an option for BA so any comparisons are meaningless here.
What BA needed was not more free food or drinks but a more convenient schedule - an afternoon departure from LHR and a morning departure from KBP, which would mean overnighting an aircraft at destination (something that BA does at IST). BA decided that they would deploy its aircraft elsewhere instead.
As much as I understand someone's desire to offer a simple explanation and to explain everything with sandwiches or lack thereof, that's not how things work in real life.

Worcester

I feel that BA have given up on IST and the route is only kept alive by connecting traffic from AA.

Having moved to ABD and started using Pegasus, I can see little difference between BA and them, aside from PC buy on board food is truly inedible. Couple of years ago you could get really cheap tickets with BA, but I can't justify paying a premium to fly with them.

ahmetdouas

IST low yield? You can’t be serious. It’s one of the largest cities in Europe, one of the largest airports in the world.

only reason it may be ‘low yield’ for BA is that they are completely outclassed by TK as if they are on another planet, except when they are discounted half price and even now I’m dreading having to take food on board (no good cheap fast food in T5!)