Spacoom

On the timing I quite disagree. There are airlines who do not ask you to see for an hour before the flight. BA is doing it consistently. In regards to the seats, with BA you need to have knee defender to fly in economy.

Spacoom

Unfortunately I am not allowed to travel on business on my own. You are on company time and you need to follow their policy. However, the intend of the topic was to share experience and hopefully people who have flexibility will stay away from BA on domestic routes.

rockflyertalk

Misco60

Why are you hoping that people will stay away from BA? You've made it clear that you don't like BA, but there are many people, myself included, for whom BA is the airline of choice. For all its faults, I genuinely prefer BA over almost any other European airline, and certainly over every airline that flies to the places I want/need to go.

Flying Yazata

Except your opinion revolves around the UK, not Europe by and large.

BA6948

NWIFlyer

I’d have to say that’s a somewhat strange agenda to attempt to persuade people not to fly the airline - particularly on a domestic or even intra-Europe route where there’s relatively little choice on direct flights from London airports if you’re trying to avoid the true LCCs.

The more cynical of the contributors here might even regard your claims as somewhat extraordinary, in fact ...

rockflyertalk

AlicorporateUK

Often1

Just how far out of the way are you willing to fly and how much time are you willing to waste in order to get a better sandwich?

Maybe there is a reason OP's employer sticks with BA.

Crofton138

So, you don't really know your travel policy? I think you're making this up as you go along...

orbitmic

I think that if you are willing to make that argument, then you have to make it consistently. In other words, I'm happy for people to say that all Y flying in the same in Europe, if they also believe, for instance, that there is really no reason to choose BA over U2 or FR, or that flying Y or C or BA is "more or less the same" and in that case that, it would make no sense to be paying for CE if it costs any more than ET. It would suggest that you think of short haul flying as a way to get from point A to B as smoothly as possible and are service-insensitive which is perfectly coherent.

At that rate, by the way, it would also be important to note that many will think of long haul flying as exactly the same.

Otherwise, then I can't really agree with the argument that it's all the same either in general or for status passengers. I can't see that the very tight sitting on IB, U2, LH, or now BA NEO is the same as the far less tight sitting on KL, AZ, AF, or even AY and SK.

I can't see that it is the same to get free food and drink on AF, LX, A3, TK, and Cityflyer and nothing at all on BA, IB, U2 or FR.

I can't see that it is the same to get free wifi on DY, free entertainment on all flights on YW and nothing on BA, AY, SK, EI or KL.

Similarly, for passengers with some frequent flyer status, I can't see that it is the same to be given lounge access when flying BA, LH, LX, SK, TK, AF, or KL but nothing on U2, FR DY or VY.

Equally, I can't see that it is the same for very frequent flyers to be allowed some checked luggage on all flights on AF, LX, OS, and KL but not on BA.

And I can't say that it feels the same to have be given empty middle seats on LH, LX, AF, IB, and increasingly (but still a lot less often) BA through theoretical seating, but not on KL, U2, and the other half of BA flights that I take which are not full but still have people sat next to me.

Now the important thing here is that you can't have it both ways. The differences in terms of flying with - say - AF, LX, and TK or BA and IB within Europe happen to be remarkably similar as the differences between CE and ET on BA especially for any status passenger, so it seems impossible to me to claim at once that Y across Europe is "all the same" to passenger A but that it could make sense for passenger B to upgrade from ET to CE for a "modest" price. I would add that the differences between BA and AF within Europe are often larger than, say, between U2 and BA except in terms of airport choice so again, it is important that the "it is all the same" argument is either made or is not, and if it is, is probably not a very good thing for BA.

I also can't say that I feel treated the same way onboard by AF (or for people with HON status on LX which is not my case), where I systematically get bottles of waters and pillows brought to me vs LH or KL where nothing happens, and BA where it is a rare (though welcome) event typically limited to MFCC flights whilst the rest has zero interaction bar generic door greeting to all and sales pitch, which somehow makes it even less pleasant humanly than in most shops.

Now of course, some of the above may or may not matter to different people - for instance, you like the LH beers whilst frankly, I personally couldn't care less, and conversely, for me, getting my own bottle of water on AF in addition to a food and drink service does make a big difference to my comfort whilst others will undoubtedly find it irrelevant to them. Similarly, I don't really enjoy the U2 boarding experience being stuck in a corridor for half an hour whilst others may not mind in the least, but ultimately those are meaningful differences which will matter to some and may add up to distinctiveness in service and perceptions of service.

Now don't take me wrong, far too often, this forum is used to pointless Manichean oppositions of an "all or nothing" type - as though anyone would ever "only" fly anything shortest irrespective of all other notions or fly "only" based on service (or miles or status or whatever) irrespective of any convenience, or just price with nothing else mattering. I just don't believe in that absurdly over-simplified "all or nothing" vision.

To me, how and what will fly is the product of complex and largely subconscious evaluations and some level of instincts. This is why I end up flying on about 30 different airlines every year, and no, that's not "only" based on pure schedule or price either. So quite frankly, if I need to go from NCE to TLV, I'd much prefer to fly U2 or LY nonstop than go with LX or BA even in F. And yes, if flying from London, I typically prefer to fly from LHR or LCY but honestly, if flying U2 or DY from LGW is half the price I'll go for it. Similarly. if I am going to fly between two cities for which I do not have any nonstop option, then service elements as well as the quality of the connection (for which I rate BA as worst of all major European airlines except from UK domestics) become a lot more relevant. Equally importantly, however, I do accept that other things that typically do not matter to me (e.g. extra luggage) will matter to others on various itineraries, but ultimately, I suspect that it is very, very few people who genuinely 'practice' their flying as though "all European Y is the same" and in my experience, those flights on different airlines do actually feel very different on many levels.

corporate-wage-slave

This top part of the answer is surely the heart of it: similar aircraft, similar seats, similar number of passengers, similar service level (with minor tweaks), equally congested flight paths. That's the materiality of it. The other issues you mention such as BoB are perhaps material to some people, some of the time, but not others (well not me) however none of us can avoid those first factors, short of using peripheral airlines - nor the current range of fares. It would have to be so, otherwise airlines wouldn't be offering such similar products - competition takes the market in a particular direction, a direction which allows BA and U2 to both offer fares to Grenoble for around £29 one way. easyJet does have a loyalty scheme, Flight Club, it just doesn't have many benefits.

For long haul I think the variations - and fares - remain much more marked. Even the existence of a premium economy cabin - hugely successful for BA - is simply not generically present on most Middle East and Asian airlines, and very few airlines offer First as well as Business. The gap from ET to CE is often remarked on here, but it is as of nothing compared to the gap between Level or Norwegian versus say AF La Première, with fare choices equally wide.

orbitmic

Ah, but you see, this is not a 'fact', this is an interpretation and that was the whole point of my post. As you say, to you it makes little to no difference that AF or TK offer free food and drink and BA does not, but for others, this is not minor at all. Similarly, for you and me, maybe it is an advantage that BA fly from LHR whilst FR fly from STN, but symmetrically, for others, a London airport or another London airport make no difference. And I believe you and some others still do some CE flying within Europe whilst for many who actually agree with your point that the differences between AF and BA Y services merely constitute minor tweaks, would feel that just equally, there are merely minor tweaks between BA Y and BA C (indeed, that is an argument we frequently get here notably from US flyers used to entirely different seats in C). My point is that there is no objective reason to feel that some things are major and some are minor and therefore that if you want to make an argument that AF Y vs BA Y is "objectively minor", then the logic is that BA Y vs BA C is the same, and if you treat BA Y vs BA C as "objectively major" (or AF Y vs AF C), then you would likely also feel that BA Y vs BA C is objectively major too. Again, everyone will have the same things they do and do not care about within those.



Are they? Again, I don't really see that. Most airlines align in cheap Y prices. Of course you get promotions that can lead to big differences but it is exactly the same short haul. Many also align in cheap J prices and again, promotions vary too. Virtually all airlines align on fully flexible rates. Sure DY may sometimes be vastly cheaper than BA or SK under a promotion, but equally other times, and of course, within Europe, it is equally the same, I frequently find myself booking trips where U2 happens to be a lot cheaper than BA or AF, and then some other times the pricings are exactly comparative or even cheaper. Differences in space? They are typically minor in long haul Y, often vary more between aircrafts for the same airline than across airline, and in any case, there is no particular reason to claim that for a long haul Y flyer, an extra inch of legroom or an extra 2 degrees of recline will necessarily make a bigger difference than free food, drink and entertainment or an extra inch of legroom do in short haul Y. I also don't find differences in service any larger in long haul Y than in short haul Y. Again, it is the same variations: free food or not, do you pay for alcohol or not, different entertainment, marginal seat differences, marginal differences in luggage concepts, free seat assignments or not, etc. To me they are almost exactly the same differences as we find in short haul Y, so either they are meaningful both ways or "Y flying is more or less the same" on long haul too to paraphrase the post I was answering.

In J and F, then yes, products do vary a lot more considerably. As for W, it makes a lot of difference to some people, and again, none whatsoever to others like me. I'd personally choose JL Y on a 788 any day over BA or AF or LH W especially given the price difference, and would never choose W over Y on any of the above airlines unless the price difference is really negligible. Similarly, many people would argue that J and F are massively different, but I know that in your case, you systematically choose to stick to J.

So again, we are in the same framework: differences exist and are potentially important though some people will be more or less receptive to some of them.



OK, there I agree - if we are no longer comparing Y to Y etc but Y to J long haul (let alone Y to F) on many airlines, then yes, the range of options within a given airline tend to vary a lot more long haul than short haul, though again, as mentioned, this is not necessarily linear (e.g. some people see a huge difference between Y and W but I don't, some people see a big difference between J and F but you don't, we both feel that there is a big difference between W and J but some people don't agree with us. Yet, I know few people who would claim that there are no big differences between Y and J or Y and F on any airline).

GM1985