windowontheAside

I agree this level of TFC is crazy. And by the time you've added in the AmEx card fee the 2-4-1 is pretty poor value compared to a judiciously timed cash booking.

I've ditched my AmEx and find myself better off as a result. I know that this won't apply to all, but I now appreciate:

• not having to decide my plans more than a year in advance - and then often pay change fees to shift dates as work plans kick in
• not having to book at midnight/1am T-355 and do the faffing 2-3 weeks later to secure the return leg
• having a pick of lots of dates and flights during a sale
• paying little more than the card fee + redemption fees for (sale) cash fares, thereby earning Avios and TPs
• taking advantage of some pretty amazing flight/car holiday discounts
• looking at non-BA deals

Wozza2404

I did the maths on this quite recently. I have to take my family of 4 to LAX next Easter for a wedding. Cash prices in J (even looking at LAS, SFO, SJC, etc.) were over £13k for the 4 of us.

Dragging the kids to OSL or ARN for an ex-EU, particularly with positioning costs, is unappealing. At a push I'd do INV, DUB or AMS as they're easily accessible from my local airport. Best price from those was £8k with KLM.

So realistically I was going to be looking at spending £5300 for WTP on BA ex-LHR and using a Joker to UUA us into CW.

The alternative was use the 2 x 241s in our account (I consider the referral and sign up bonuses for these at 35k per card to offset the £195 fee - but if you don't churn them then I understand that from Year 2 your maths may be different), and also sweep up a GUF2 and 2x GUF1 vouchers to put us into F (with a Joker) for something like 300K Avios and £2660ish.

So the question here is "Do you consider a cash saving of £2640ish and an upgrade to F for 4 to be worth 300k Avios?"

Everyone is different, but for me it works as I'm currently not short of Avios. So I think despite the crazy fees it does still work out; but you have to really do your sums first.

On a side note, I Jokered two return seats to MLE yesterday so that cost me about £1300 and 250k Avios. But given I'd have had to stump up for a cash fare otherwise, that looked like great value; especially when I can cancel the redemption if QR launch another daft sale in the new year. So that's another thing a lot of people don't take into account with redemption bookings vs cash - the flexibility of the former vs the latter.

mikeyfly

I've used Avios for LAS next week; it seemed not great value but on a 2-4-1 and £1300 I was hoping for the Black Friday deal to allow me to cancel and pay £1,000 each. However, the deal didn't cover my dates so stuck with Avios.

I then saw F become available back from LAX, so changed and upgrade for £70 and 25,000 Avios. Total bargain in my eyes and wouldn't have been possible on revenue tickets. I guess the flexibility of Reward flights adds value too

PaulJohnson

I'm also done with Amex 2-4-1. With limited availability and high surcharges I'll be better off with ex-EU or if I can find availability then WTP and UuA. I used my last amex voucher for flying in WT from LGW and returning in CW to LHR. I found out that flying out of LHR in WT usually adds additional £50-£60 or even more depending on the route. Fortunately I'm flying to Carribean so was lucky that there was availability in CW back from Miami in Feb. Of course there was no CW availability to/from Carribean...

dougzz

Exactly this for me. Having paid sub £1000 for Manchester to MSP and San Antonio in '17, that sort of set the bar, I splashed out close to £1250 for CW to SFO this year, and even went to £1450 for Virgin UC to Miami as I had a £200 cashback on Amex with Amex Travel, so thought of it as net £1250.This leaves me feeling bad about using all those Avios (and not earning more and TP too) only to have to pay £650. True it is a flexible ticket, but only within reward availability, or refund.

flygod

This was in reply to my 241 a waste of time, with cash fares in CW at £1500.

So, in F, GrantSteve's flights cost (at 1p per avios), £1,360 plus £1,336 plus £195 for the BA Amex fee. So about £1,400 each. Which, on the surface, seems not too bad for a return in F.

But is it a saving on paying cash? Well, I wouldn't - can't! - pay for F. Even at just £500 each more than CW, I would be finding it hard to spend £1,000 from after-tax income - let alone spending £6k+ on tickets!

I fly to Denver, much longer flight. To be frank, F is always a disappointment. Last time, flight was announced at 8hrs instead of 9hrs - so I asked for cheese and biscuits and a glass of dessert wine so as I could have a kip. It took the crew 90 mins to start the service!

In CW upstairs on the 747, you have a much faster service and can get more of a kip! I have no BA status, and would rather pay to be in CW upstairs than use extra avios to fly F. And if I pay cash for the ticket, then I get avios back too!

Yes, avios redemption gives you flexibility. But I work for myself, and can fix my time off well in advance (indeed, often have to fix it well in advance!)

I would rather have four flights to Denver to see family in CW than three in F.

Not to say that I don't like other airlines, off to Cuba in Iberia Business (which I really like) and have the same taps in my bathroom that CX have in their F lounge in Hong Kong! (The taps cost me £750!)

Geordie405

Totally agree with this too. I have been looking at flights home next year and the cost of LAS - NCL returns is just silly money. I am probably going to look at doing LAS - LAX - JFK / BOS on AA using Avios and then do a daytime flight to the UK in WTP rather than overnight from LAS with BA. It's bad enough booking just for myself but when you factor in the family it's just eye-wateringly expensive. I can only think of one 2-day sale in the (almost) four years that I have lived here.

secretplantofightinflation

I'd just suck it up and fly economy!

george 3

Much. R/T to CDG thru LHR with low miles (AA) was $2300 US.