Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jan 27, 2017, 6:26 am
  #121  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dorset, UK
Programs: BA GGL/GfL
Posts: 648
Question - I have a delay from a few years ago from YVR that, according to BA, "as Captain reported sick prior to departure and the spare Captain required minimum rest". The "spare Captain" was actually the one who brought in the aircraft that we flew back on, and it led to around a 17 hour delay.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't case law around the topic but there is precedent (albeit non-binding) from small claims court cases that illness, or more the lack of available crew, is something within the control of the airline as it is their choice to.

I am considering pursuing this further at the moment and wonder if anyone has any thoughts in either direction as to what avenues this may be? I was under the impression that it was a 2 night break for crew in Vancouver so it being BA's choice to not use the one from the next night (who would have had minimum rest).
Beaulieu is offline  
Old Jan 27, 2017, 6:33 am
  #122  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 65,097
Originally Posted by Beaulieu
As far as I'm aware, there isn't case law around the topic but there is precedent (albeit non-binding) from small claims court cases that illness, or more the lack of available crew, is something within the control of the airline as it is their choice to.
This would be my understanding, unless the crew member got sick mid flight or some such and led to a diversion. But you are right to highlight some haziness over this, if you got the right judge (e.g. in Liverpool or Reading) you would probably have a stronger case here, another district judge may think you're being unreasonable in expecting BA to rustle up a pilot in Vancouver. BA have tried to fight these cases on occasions, I don't know what their current stance would be, perhaps an out of court telephone call the day before the hearing? I wouldn't take this to CEDR, though the law tends to the passengers' side here (explicitly) I can imagine a CEDR arbitrator would also think it an unreasonable proposition.
corporate-wage-slave is offline  
Old Jan 27, 2017, 9:38 am
  #123  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
This would be my understanding, unless the crew member got sick mid flight or some such and led to a diversion. But you are right to highlight some haziness over this, if you got the right judge (e.g. in Liverpool or Reading) you would probably have a stronger case here, another district judge may think you're being unreasonable in expecting BA to rustle up a pilot in Vancouver. BA have tried to fight these cases on occasions, I don't know what their current stance would be, perhaps an out of court telephone call the day before the hearing? I wouldn't take this to CEDR, though the law tends to the passengers' side here (explicitly) I can imagine a CEDR arbitrator would also think it an unreasonable proposition.
Smith/Collinson vs. BA was one example of this (heard in the County Court), and this was the Bahamas - albeit BA might now include a more standard demonstration of why it's not reasonable to include an extra pilot on such flights.

https://www.flightdelays.co.uk/pdf/p...ss_victory.pdf
Schiehallion is offline  
Old Jan 28, 2017, 1:22 am
  #124  
sxc
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Accor Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: CX Green, QF Platinum, BAEC Silver, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 10,780
So just to check it seems that CEDR is available to non U.K. Residents?
sxc is offline  
Old Jan 28, 2017, 1:36 am
  #125  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 65,097
Originally Posted by sxc
So just to check it seems that CEDR is available to non U.K. Residents?
As far as I can tell, yes.

The reason I say that is that this was set up at the behest of the National Enforcement Body (NEB) for the UK, which is the Civil Aviation Authority, which many of us connected with this thread felt was improper: the CAA's has many roles around aviation, many much more important than customer remediation, and therefore there was both a potential conflict of interest and a loss of focus. The CAA probably didn't enjoy this part of its work either. So by setting up the CEDR process for BA and other UK airlines it divested itself of the daily, murky operations of this, while on paper retaining overall control. So this was set up on an airline basis, easyJet has similar arrangements. Overall for both BA and easyJet their main regulators are the CAA and the European version, the EASA.

When the CAA was doing the NEB role itself, it certainly handled complaints from overseas passengers, if it was a purely domestic trip, where else could a passenger go with a complaint? Now there may well be circumstances where another country's NEB would be more relevant, and there are many cases that the Spanish NEB has handled on behalf of UK citizens, for example. But because CEDR is an arms-length version of national enforcement activity, my belief is that overseas travellers can use it.

CEDR does not hold face to face hearings (it has that ability on paper I imagine, and the CEDR staff can and do make telephone calls to check details), its operations are very different to a court and so there are situations where CEDR is more suitable; and other cases, particularly if fine legal argument is involved, where the courts in the UK or overseas, would be better equipped.
corporate-wage-slave is offline  
Old Jan 28, 2017, 8:56 am
  #126  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Stirling, Scotland
Programs: Amex Centurion - BA Gold - IHG Diamond Elite - HHonors Diamond - Virgin/Sky Team Gold / Hillman Imp
Posts: 2,076
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
I don't actually know, but I would call the court's clerk (or Scottish equivalent) to find out what s/he says.
It was Liverpool court, I posted last year about them "staying" the claim pending the result of another case.
They stated that they were aware of on excess of 30+ claims where the "defendant" had used the "lightning strike" cause as exceptional circumstances.

In the end I sent in a new N1 form along with a covering letter so should cover all bases.
pmcg is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2017, 2:22 pm
  #127  
Marriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,802
Has anyone had experience with requesting the 600 Euro payment via bank transfer and having BA send to an American bank? Are there fees involved (does this count as an int'l wire transfer)? Was the conversion rate (Euro->USD) reasonable?

Thanks.
izzik is online now  
Old Jan 30, 2017, 4:09 pm
  #128  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Arizona
Programs: BA (GGL G4L), AA (Gold), HH (Diamond); Marriott (Gold)
Posts: 3,014
Originally Posted by izzik
Has anyone had experience with requesting the 600 Euro payment via bank transfer and having BA send to an American bank? Are there fees involved (does this count as an int'l wire transfer)? Was the conversion rate (Euro->USD) reasonable?

Thanks.
iirc, the conversion rate was as reasonable as any other transaction and my bank did not charge any fees (believe it was processed as an EFT rather than wire transfer, and perhaps done via their US account rather than a UK account?)
dylanks is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2017, 4:39 pm
  #129  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BOS
Programs: BA Silver, Mucci
Posts: 5,289
Originally Posted by izzik
Has anyone had experience with requesting the 600 Euro payment via bank transfer and having BA send to an American bank? Are there fees involved (does this count as an int'l wire transfer)? Was the conversion rate (Euro->USD) reasonable?

Thanks.
I received a check, in USD, mailed within the US. I received it a few days after they approved my claim.
HilFly is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 5:37 am
  #130  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA GS 2MM
Posts: 966
Question: reduced compensation or not?

EU-US flight (3500km+), mechanical problem after pushback, arrived 4 hours late. All pax held on plane for the duration. No rerouting offered.

BA has now said (twice) only reduced compensation (300 Euro) since delay was 4 hours. That does not seem to agree with the regulation.
djmp is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 6:15 am
  #131  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 65,097
Originally Posted by djmp
Question: reduced compensation or not?

EU-US flight (3500km+), mechanical problem after pushback, arrived 4 hours late. All pax held on plane for the duration. No rerouting offered.

BA has now said (twice) only reduced compensation (300 Euro) since delay was 4 hours. That does not seem to agree with the regulation.
Over 4 hours is 600€, under 4 hours is 300€ for the longer flights. Doors open ready for disembarkation at the arrival airport is what counts here, delay in departure is immaterial.
corporate-wage-slave is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 6:17 am
  #132  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,314
Originally Posted by djmp
Question: reduced compensation or not?

EU-US flight (3500km+), mechanical problem after pushback, arrived 4 hours late. All pax held on plane for the duration. No rerouting offered.

BA has now said (twice) only reduced compensation (300 Euro) since delay was 4 hours. That does not seem to agree with the regulation.

are you 100% sure the delay was >4 hours as not just under?
UKtravelbear is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 6:09 pm
  #133  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA GS 2MM
Posts: 966
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
are you 100% sure the delay was >4 hours as not just under?
It was 3.5 hours late. My point is that 50% reduction in compensation per EC261/2004 Article 7(c) only applies if *rerouting was offered*. It was not. Reading the text from here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
djmp is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 8:04 pm
  #134  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,314
Originally Posted by djmp
It was 3.5 hours late. My point is that 50% reduction in compensation per EC261/2004 Article 7(c) only applies if *rerouting was offered*. It was not. Reading the text from here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Yes you are reading it wrong.

The original regulation - as per your link- does not provide for compensation for Delays just 'assistance' under article 8 and 9.

Article 6 (delay) does not reference Article 7 (compensation) at all.

The 1/2 compensation for re-routing applied originally for cancellations.

The right to compensation for delays was as a result of a European Court Ruling.

For a flight of 3,500km or more full payment is for flights delayed by 4 hours or more. It is halved for delays between 3 hours and 3 hours 59 minutes. Unless the delay is due to weather or ATC or the other exemptions.

see 11.2 in Post 1 of this thread

from the circumstances of what you have posted BA are correctly interpreting the regulation.

Btw it would have helped if you posted the accurate delay length in the first place.
UKtravelbear is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2017, 8:24 pm
  #135  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA GS 2MM
Posts: 966
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
Yes you are reading it wrong.

The original regulation - as per your link- does not provide for compensation for Delays just 'assistance' under article 8 and 9.

Article 6 (delay) does not reference Article 7 (compensation) at all.

The 1/2 compensation for re-routing applied originally for cancellations.

The right to compensation for delays was as a result of a European Court Ruling.

For a flight of 3,500km or more full payment is for flights delayed by 4 hours or more. It is halved for delays between 3 hours and 3 hours 59 minutes. Unless the delay is due to weather or ATC or the other exemptions.

see 11.2 in Post 1 of this thread

from the circumstances of what you have posted BA are correctly interpreting the regulation.

Btw it would have helped if you posted the accurate delay length in the first place.
I see, thanks for the clarification.
djmp is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.