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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Feb 10, 2017, 4:34 am
  #166  
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FlyboyStu, sorry to hear about this.

I wouldn't get too fixed on the seat map situation. It is genuinely the case that in a fast moving situation - with hundreds of passengers, some of whom make and fail connections, perhaps a dozen standby passengers - that in the frenetic lead up to departure seats which appear to be available are not available. That is not to say there could have tried harder, but yes things also get overlooked due to the pressure of time. There is some anecdotal evidence that redemptions are more at risk of downgrade than revenue bookings. You did your best, but it didn't work out. And yes your other option was to stay in the Caymans until they could find some CW seats for you.

As to where you are now, yes you are entitled to both the delay cancellation and the downgrade cancellation, no question of that. Some staff do indeed believe redemptions don't get downgrade compensation, but any staff member with specialist knowledge of this area will not make that mistake, as you say it is clearly identified in the Regulation.

So your logic seems broadly correct, plus the seat fee, however note that the airline can deduct from the cash element any taxes that they would have had to pay anyway by shipping you back in WTP. So I would press for the 600€ each, 46875 Avios (the proportion that you actually paid, so not grossed up, and divided by two if it was a return trip), plus the seat fee each, and plus a reduced cash component each of about 190. The taxes for that trip are about 75.

For the 2-4-1, you effectively did use that on the WTP sections, though I accept you probably wouldn't have chosen to use it on that basis. Instead I would press for a space available upgrade on a future trip to cover that and the customer remediation aspect.

See how you get on. If the reply isn't helpful or slow, just switch to MCOL and use that as the technical means to get your money refunded.
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Old Feb 10, 2017, 4:49 am
  #167  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
FlyboyStu, sorry to hear about this.

I wouldn't get too fixed on the seat map situation. It is genuinely the case that in a fast moving situation - with hundreds of passengers, some of whom make and fail connections, perhaps a dozen standby passengers - that in the frenetic lead up to departure seats which appear to be available are not available. That is not to say there could have tried harder, but yes things also get overlooked due to the pressure of time. There is some anecdotal evidence that redemptions are more at risk of downgrade than revenue bookings. You did your best, but it didn't work out. And yes your other option was to stay in the Caymans until they could find some CW seats for you.

As to where you are now, yes you are entitled to both the delay cancellation and the downgrade cancellation, no question of that. Some staff do indeed believe redemptions don't get downgrade compensation, but any staff member with specialist knowledge of this area will not make that mistake, as you say it is clearly identified in the Regulation.

So your logic seems broadly correct, plus the seat fee, however note that the airline can deduct from the cash element any taxes that they would have had to pay anyway by shipping you back in WTP. So I would press for the 600 each, 46875 Avios (the proportion that you actually paid, so not grossed up, and divided by two if it was a return trip), plus the seat fee each, and plus a reduced cash component each of about 190. The taxes for that trip are about 75.

For the 2-4-1, you effectively did use that on the WTP sections, though I accept you probably wouldn't have chosen to use it on that basis. Instead I would press for a space available upgrade on a future trip to cover that and the customer remediation aspect.

See how you get on. If the reply isn't helpful or slow, just switch to MCOL and use that as the technical means to get your money refunded.
Thanks so much CWS, that is extremely helpful. I really appreciate your assistance and insights. I had taken the reference to 'price paid' to be the total cost of outbound and return legs, but now see from your post that it applies to only the affected leg. The only thing I don't understand is how you get to the 190. The total cost of fees and taxes we paid initially was 1,083.70 plus the seat reservation fees of 68 per seat.
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Old Feb 10, 2017, 4:52 am
  #168  
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Originally Posted by FlyboyStu
Thanks so much CWS, that is extremely helpful. I really appreciate your assistance and insights. I had taken the reference to 'price paid' to be the total cost of outbound and return legs, but now see from your post that it applies to only the affected leg. The only thing I don't understand is how you get to the 190. The total cost of fees and taxes we paid initially was 1,083.70 plus the seat reservation fees of 68 per seat.
That's APD for you, only applicable for outbound LHR-GCM services. BA are entitled to get all of that out of you since they have to pay HMRC for your outbound. If you book a single CW from GCM then you will see the charges are only 265 (use 16 June as an example, only 1 seat though).
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Old Feb 10, 2017, 5:17 am
  #169  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
That's APD for you, only applicable for outbound LHR-GCM services. BA are entitled to get all of that out of you since they have to pay HMRC for your outbound. If you book a single CW from GCM then you will see the charges are only 265 (use 16 June as an example, only 1 seat though).
Understood, and fair enough I guess. From what I now understand, and from what BA have said to me, I am left with the impression that Avios and Amex 2-4-1 redemptions are more at risk of being downgraded, perhaps because there is less immediate cost for BA in so doing. However, for me at least, this significantly reduces their appeal and therefore the incentive to earn Avios points in the first place, which in turn makes me more inclined to look at other alternative carriers for my paid bookings. As you say, I would definitely not have used the voucher on a WTP booking for an overnight flight. Thanks again for your help CWS; much appreciated.
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Old Feb 10, 2017, 5:38 am
  #170  
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Originally Posted by FlyboyStu
However, for me at least, this significantly reduces their appeal and therefore the incentive to earn Avios points in the first place, which in turn makes me more inclined to look at other alternative carriers for my paid bookings.
Well yes, I can see where you are coming from there. What I would say is that you're going to get quite a tidy sum back here. You paid 125k Avios, and 1300 for two approx, and you will get back about 46k Avios and 1500 back, which isn't a bad outcome, in my view. BA paid you 200 to go to the Caymans. I had a weather radar problem in Bermuda (I sat it out!) but it is a fluke when that happens.
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Old Feb 10, 2017, 5:51 am
  #171  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Well yes, I can see where you are coming from there. What I would say is that you're going to get quite a tidy sum back here. You paid 125k Avios, and 1300 for two approx, and you will get back about 46k Avios and 1500 back, which isn't a bad outcome, in my view. BA paid you 200 to go to the Caymans. I had a weather radar problem in Bermuda (I sat it out!) but it is a fluke when that happens.
Great perspective, and you're absolutely right. And it was a superb trip. Thanks again.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 5:11 am
  #172  
 
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EU261 Claim advice

Hi, I would appreciate some advice as I have hit a stalemate with BA. My flight from MAD-LHR was cancelled and I was flown home the following day on the next available flight. BA paid for the hotel and offered to pay the incidentals.
I had flown to MAD earlier in the day and there was fog at LHR and we were delayed due to it. My flight was due to leave MAD at 1825 returning into LHR at 1945. There was no fog at LHR and all flights were operating from MAD which was unaffected by weather. BA's first response was it was due to adverse at LHR which I challenged. The second email stated there was thick fog at LHR and ATC reduced the flow rates resulting in delays and cancellations. They then go on to say it is exceptional circumstances. Recital 14 and 15 is quoted mentioning weather, strike and impact of air traffic management decisions as the reason that they do not to pay.

I would accept my flight being potentially cancelled if there was fog at the time I was due at LHR. My study of flightstats show very few delays and cancellations outside the early morning. Newspaper reports for the day show the fog had cleared by about 1000. Even this period was not heavily delayed.

I think BA are being unreasonable as they chose to cancel the plane I was due to fly and could not re-accommodate me on any flight until the following morning which resulted me in having to take an additional days holiday. The only odd thing is flightstats shows the aircraft from LHR-MAD-LHR was cancelled in the morning. This leads to the question which I am doubtful - would ATC at LHR ask airlines to reduce their flights over a whole day even when fog is due to clear? From reading this thread I know I only need to prove that the MAD-LHR flight cancellation as the inbound flight is irrelevant.

Any opinions are appreciated on my case and best way to state my case. BA have said they will not discuss it further. As the claim is only 250 Euro's I plan to use the CEDR route as it appears the fastest and least time consuming route.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 5:59 am
  #173  
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Originally Posted by flyoff
This leads to the question which I am doubtful - would ATC at LHR ask airlines to reduce their flights over a whole day even when fog is due to clear?
Yes that can and did happen recently. Can you give the date concerned? We maybe able to find out more information.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 6:38 am
  #174  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Yes that can and did happen recently. Can you give the date concerned? We maybe able to find out more information.
Thanks corporate-wage-slave. The day of the flight was the 31/10/16.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 10:39 am
  #175  
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Originally Posted by flyoff
Thanks corporate-wage-slave. The day of the flight was the 31/10/16.
According to the BA Source, this is the list of flights that didn't operate:

Originally Posted by thebasource.com
BA306/BA309 London Heathrow – Paris CDG
BA346/BA347 London Heathrow – Nice
BA368/BA369 London Heathrow – Marseille
BA446/BA447 London Heathrow – Amsterdam
BA460/BA461 London Heathrow – Madrid
BA576/BA577 London Heathrow – Milan Linate
Which is indicative of a low level of weather related cancellations. There is also this thread with related comments:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ellations.html

My interpretation, is that yes there was a fog event that day, yes, there were some cancellations because of it, and you are unlikely to get very far with BA in any direct dealings with them. Your best hope is either CEDR or MCOL, and in fact I have a feeling MCOL may work better for you. However bringing this all together I don't think you have a strong case.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:04 am
  #176  
 
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Hi corporate-wage-slave thanks for your research. I had followed a similar pattern with BAsource cancellations and then double checking those against flightstats. For an early foggy start there were the expected delays and cancellations early on.

What surprised me though was that the 1825 from MAD that I was on was the latest flight that day. There was no fog after 1100 so do you think this was LHR ATC asking for flights to be cancelled throughout the day?

On the 31st my flight first thing in the morning from LHR departed late to MAD (separate PNR) even though there was fog so was surprised I coudn't get back when there was no fog. I know the dedication you have made to flyertalk so respect your advice. I don't want to waste my time and others if you think there isn't a chance of a claim. is your reasoning that LHR were restricting traffic and I got unlucky to be one of the few flights cancelled later in the day?
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:17 am
  #177  
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Originally Posted by flyoff
What surprised me though was that the 1825 from MAD that I was on was the latest flight that day. There was no fog after 1100 so do you think this was LHR ATC asking for flights to be cancelled throughout the day?
I don't have specific insight to what happened that day (though I was partly impacted) but my understanding of the process is that ATC ask the airlines collectively to reduce flights, a consensus agreement is reached, and then it's down to the airlines concerned to decide exactly which flight is taken out. Given that LHR operates at 97% capacity, I can certainly see how cancellations in the morning can lead to backlogs all day long and therefore cancellations.

Now BA will feel they are on fairly solid ground here, so my suspicion is that after reverting to them a few times they will maintain their stance. You can certainly have another go at it, it won't cost you anything more than your time. But realistically if you strongly believe that this isn't right, and BA won't budge, you then have a decision to make as to whether to take it further.

If you then go to CEDR - that works on a "we think you're all telling the truth, so we will strike an outcome based on what we think is reasonable". The courts work on the balance of probability. So either channel will give you some scope, but particular judge may take the view that this wasn't weather, but recovering from earlier movements of out of place aircraft, caused by weather. Only a judge can make that decision, not me, and there is a bit of scope for inconsistency if we are being honest. BA have been known to fold cases if it's a bit each way too.

I guess it boils down to your appetite to take that matter on beyond BA, since I doubt that internally they're going to agree with your analysis.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 11:26 am
  #178  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
I don't have specific insight to what happened that day (though I was partly impacted) but my understanding of the process is that ATC ask the airlines collectively to reduce flights, a consensus agreement is reached, and then it's down to the airlines concerned to decide exactly which flight is taken out. Given that LHR operates at 97% capacity, I can certainly see how cancellations in the morning can lead to backlogs all day long and therefore cancellations.

Now BA will feel they are on fairly solid ground here, so my suspicion is that after reverting to them a few times they will maintain their stance. You can certainly have another go at it, it won't cost you anything more than your time. But realistically if you strongly believe that this isn't right, and BA won't budge, you then have a decision to make as to whether to take it further.

If you then go to CEDR - that works on a "we think you're all telling the truth, so we will strike an outcome based on what we think is reasonable". The courts work on the balance of probability. So either channel will give you some scope, but particular judge may take the view that this wasn't weather, but recovering from earlier movements of out of place aircraft, caused by weather. Only a judge can make that decision, not me, and there is a bit of scope for inconsistency if we are being honest. BA have been known to fold cases if it's a bit each way too.

I guess it boils down to your appetite to take that matter on beyond BA, since I doubt that internally they're going to agree with your analysis.
Thank you for the guidance which I will act on. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 1:50 pm
  #179  
 
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Originally Posted by flyoff
...... The second email stated there was thick fog at LHR and ATC reduced the flow rates resulting in delays and cancellations. They then go on to say it is exceptional circumstances.
......
This leads to the question which I am doubtful - would ATC at LHR ask airlines to reduce their flights over a whole day even when fog is due to clear?
flyoff

The answer to your question is no; the footnote to that appears in the first paragraph I've quoted above.

At LHR, ATC will reduce flow rates in poor weather. ATC will pass on to the Airport Operator the impact of those flow rates in terms of predicted delays. The Airport Operator will then either request a certain proportion of flights be cancelled by each airline, which the airlines are free to ignore, or there is a more formal process, to which all the airlines have signed up, which requires them to cancel a certain proportion of their flights.

ATC have no power to cancel flights, nor force airlines to cancel flights.

I know it may sound a bit pedantic, but this topic comes up frequently on social media; not helped by certain airlines' Twitter posts claiming this.
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Old Feb 18, 2017, 5:49 am
  #180  
 
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Heathrow Tower - Thank you very interesting
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