Tobias-UK

It is you who are scaremongering, not me. And contrary to your assertions, all three airlines you mention routinely oversell their flights.

s0ssos

Where's your proof?

We all agree BA oversells, however you define it. You have yet to show those other airlines do.

Tobias-UK

I don't need to prove anything, I've merely responded to your scaremongering/rant.

Tobias-UK

I really wouldn't concern yourself, these are rare occurrences and it really isn't worth worrying yourself about it. How to avoid it? I don't think you can. I've been on hundreds of First flights on some very busy routes (including using Avios and 2for1s) and I've only witnessed one downgrade from F to J. However, I've seen a great deal of upgrades J to F.

BA no doubt has its policy for selecting those to be downgraded, it wouldn't surprise me if those on repemptions are among the first to be downgraded. There must be a pecking order when such decisions have to be made and it makes commercial sense to me to prioritise those who have paid the most for their tickets followed by those with status.

Do appreciate that not all downgrades are due to over sales, sometimes it is a result of equipment change or inoperable seats.

s0ssos

Actually, you have not. I have actually stated some facts, whereas you reply on vague words like "rare" and "almost all".

There is a difference between saying things do happen, and that things never happen. Planes rarely crash. So in your opinion it would be useless to think about what-if scenarios. (and in fact I am pretty sure commercial aviation incidents are less common than BA downgrades)

Tobias-UK

For the sake of others reading this thread, as this argument is not helping the OP or others I'll not be responding any further if you don't mind. I've made my point very clearly above and have nothing further to add.

LTN Phobia

That assumption is incorrect.

Let's pose the question this way:

- Has your work ever reimbursed you in points for the points you've spent?
- Do you tend to have a little more flexibility as you tend to fly for leisure purposes when you use your points to fly?

If I book on points more likely I have a flexibility to go on another day - ANY carrier, not just BA, because long haul availability on points on the day I want to fly is pretty rare.

Perhaps everyone's situation is different and what may be a right answer for one person may not be right for others?

GinFizz

That would be good, but my reading of the original post is that the offer was interpreted (correctly or incorrectly) as a full settlement.

The question, not withstanding the related discussion in preceding posts about F downgrades, is how to value 1/2 of a 2-4-1 voucher. I have no experience of this, but here are some thoughts to get the discussion back on track and maybe help taxloop (or rather his/her friends).

First the EU regulation provides for reimbursement, rather than cost differential. In the strict application of the relevant law this should provide, as a minimum, for 75% of half of half of a 2-4-1 voucher (one direction, and half one person affected on a 2-person booking). There is also the debate as to whether the basis for the reimbursement should be the full ticket value, or just the affected fare (or sector in the case of XXX-LHR-YYY journeys).

Reimbursing a partial voucher is clearly is not possible, so I would argue that as an Avios-based payment instrument (that can only be used with Avios), the amount should be related to the Avios cost for the journey. A cash value for the reimbursement can then also be established based on the cost of replacing the Avios - namely the price charged by BA to buy Avios. This will depend on whether the journey was booked on a Peak or Off-peak day:

LHR-JFK (F award)
Peak = 80000 Avios ; Offpeak = 68000 Avios

75%, valued at standard BA purchase rate gives:
Peak = 60000 Avios (975 GBP) ; Off-peak = 51000 Avios (831 GBP).

The offer so far (if taken as a settlement offer) can also be valued based on Avios cost:

Difference F->CW (Peak) = 20000 Avios == 335 GBP
Difference F->CW (Off-peak) = 18000 Avios == 323 GBP

Together with the 500 GBP that gives a value of 835 GBP (Peak) or 823 (Off-peak).

The recent EU ruling stated that for revenue fares taxes and fees should not be included in the reimbursement calculation. Whether the fuel surcharge can be considered as a tax/fee I do not know. If not, then 75% of the amount for the particular journey should aslo be on the table (regardless of the fact that the fuel surcharge for CW and F is the same - as EC/261, for whatever reason, does not use cost differential as a basis for the amount due).

It is certainly worth the OP treating the 500 + reimbursement as a service recovery gesture, and asking in addition for the EC/261-prescribed amount.
If BA push back on that, and it was an Off-peak day, then I personally would take the money/Avios and leave it there. If it was a Peak day, I would push for an offer that at least matches the EU amount when calulated as above.

msm2000uk

There was a fairly lengthy thread earlier this year about flights from KUL on the 789.

I seem to recall a couple of reports from FTers advising they were downgraded due to broken seats, and other issues - only to find the seats filled upon boarding (and not with BA staff).

As Tobias-UK has said, BA is not the only airline to downgrade due to oversold flights.

While BA have, in this example (thread) offered £500, I want to dispell one myth.

QR, for all its good at times, is rather hopeless when it comes to downgrades. Quite a few FTers have been downgraded on the BKK routing for travel over the next few months, and the QR response is near enough nil.

I accept this is not due to overselling, but due to the total removal of an F cabin on the service, but I thought it should be noted - as further up in the thread, it is stated that BA's offer would be comparable to something QR would do.

M

orbitmic

The policy has been there for years (i.e. When it was mostly 8 seats and on many more routes than now when it is considered a niche service by AF). I think it's more to do with AF considering that F is and should be exceptional. Negatively for deal seekers, it is partly reflected in the lack of very low fares (although their weekend promotion includes some F returns from about £2500 and the expensive and flex fares are typically no different on AF and BA) and limitations to upgrades, but on the positive side, In the same way that they consider you cannot let a F passenger face a long queue at security at airports or a cumbersome terminal transfer by foot and public coach, they also consider you cannot tell them they have been downgraded because of an overbooking.

orbitmic

All airlines oversell their flights except low cost. There is no exception on the principle. There are only class specific exception like AF having an explicit policy not to oversell F (but they do J, W, and Y).

There is, in my view, absolutely no evidence that BA oversells more than other airlines and most of their over sales are always taken care of by upgrading passengers in the first instance which typically works in everyone's interest.

If there is a case of overbooking, they are normally obliged by law to ask for volunteers first if this is feasible. In both cases of VDB and IDB, compensation will be offered and IDB also entails statutory compensation.

The only pattern I'd mention from non representative personal experience is that US airlines tend to overbook more often than their European counterparts and the call for volunteers at the gate is still fairly frequent there. Within Europe, I'd honestly could not say anyone stands out bar the very specific case that I mentioned (AF in F only).

Finally, I'd point out that there is a pretty simple rule of thumb when it comes to proof: it's the person who accuses who needs to provide it and not the person who denies the accusation. There are good reasons for that, if only that scientifically, you can positively prove a statistical relationship but can never actually prove its absence. You can say that it is below given thresholds of statistical significance but that it is not, in and by itself, accepted as proof that nothing is going on, so if you were to inverse the burden of proof you would also immediately make it impossible to sustain.

corporate-wage-slave

Ryanair and easyJet also oversell some flights. easyJet markedly so, on regional flights to holiday destinations at peak times such as BHX to PMI. They provide cash at the airport and ask people to wait to the next service, or move them to a nearby airport.

I know CX oversells First since I've seen it happen (and it wasn't pretty!). I've also seen AF close off First and downgrade all passengers, due to a lack of staff.

1010101

Not in F they don't, at least not SQ and CX.

CX doesn't oversell F as a matter of policy. What you most likely saw is a celebrity or official throwing their weight around, which unfortunately does happen from time to time. There are exceptions to every rule especially in Asia.

LTN Phobia

A lot of LCCs do too. I've been on a standby due to overbooking - I think I was number 9. I got on, by the way.

Airline shall remain nameless to protect the guilty

orbitmic

Ah thanks. At the beginning, both U2 and FR explicitly did not (it was in fact part of several of their advertising campaigns) but they must have changed that. It's never happened on one of my flights with either so I thought the original policy was still going on but I am not altogether surprised that's not the case any more.