Jun 16, 2014, 7:00 am
Last edit by: TCX69
In late 2014/early 2015 British Airways has refurbished all of its A320 and A321 fleet (ex-bmi aircraft are not to be refurbished, and A319 conversions are still undergoing--see below) to an interior of:
The Shorthaul Boeing fleet (Gatwick 737s, Heathrow 767s) will not be refurbished. These aircraft will remain with a business class seat pitch of 34", width of 19.5" and recline of 4.5", and with an economy class seat pitch of 31", width of 18" and recline of 4.5".
The ex-bmi A319 and A320 aircraft will not be refurbished. These aircraft will remain with a seat pitch of 30", width of 18" and recline of 3" in both business and economy.
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Pitch Changes
A319 business class from 34" to 30"
A320 business class from 34" to 30"
A321 business class from 34" to 30"
A319 economy class from 31" to 29"
A320 economy class from 31" to 30"
A321 economy class from 31" to 30"
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Width Changes
A319 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A320 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A321 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A319 economy class from 18" to 17"
A320 economy class from 18" to 17"
A321 economy class from 18" to 17"
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Recline Changes
A319/A320/A321 business class from 4.5" to 3"
A319/A320/A321 economy class from 4.5" to 2"
The A320 aircraft fitted with in flight entertainment (IFE) will continue to offer it for use on selected flights of 3 hours and over (Band 4) – ATH/IST/LCA. These aircraft no longer offer in-seat power.
Detailed description of the new seats and cabin design, courtesy of lhrsinsyd
New seat plans
courtesy of TCX69
Completed Aircraft - 28 Apr 16
courtesy of TCX69
A319
All Complete
A320
All Complete
A321
All Complete
- Business class (Club Europe/CE) seat pitch of 30", width of 17" and recline of 3";
- Economy class (Euro Traveller/ET) seat pitch of 29-30", width of 17" and recline of 2".
The Shorthaul Boeing fleet (Gatwick 737s, Heathrow 767s) will not be refurbished. These aircraft will remain with a business class seat pitch of 34", width of 19.5" and recline of 4.5", and with an economy class seat pitch of 31", width of 18" and recline of 4.5".
The ex-bmi A319 and A320 aircraft will not be refurbished. These aircraft will remain with a seat pitch of 30", width of 18" and recline of 3" in both business and economy.
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Pitch Changes
A319 business class from 34" to 30"
A320 business class from 34" to 30"
A321 business class from 34" to 30"
A319 economy class from 31" to 29"
A320 economy class from 31" to 30"
A321 economy class from 31" to 30"
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Width Changes
A319 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A320 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A321 business class from 19.5" to 17"
A319 economy class from 18" to 17"
A320 economy class from 18" to 17"
A321 economy class from 18" to 17"
Mainline BA Shorthaul Airbus Seat Recline Changes
A319/A320/A321 business class from 4.5" to 3"
A319/A320/A321 economy class from 4.5" to 2"
The A320 aircraft fitted with in flight entertainment (IFE) will continue to offer it for use on selected flights of 3 hours and over (Band 4) – ATH/IST/LCA. These aircraft no longer offer in-seat power.
Detailed description of the new seats and cabin design, courtesy of lhrsinsyd
New seat plans
courtesy of TCX69
Completed Aircraft - 28 Apr 16
courtesy of TCX69
A319
All Complete
A320
All Complete
A321
All Complete
New Shorthaul Cabins
Oct 27, 2014, 9:36 am
#1501
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
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Sorry to go OT, but the mood on this thread today has reminded me of something. Forgive me for rambling!
I started work at 16 as a postman, in the days when the service was really rather good...you know...first delivery always by 9.30 am (in the town), the postman had time for a quick chat, 2 deliveries a day. I stayed for 21 years, but over that time progressive governments ruined the service (IMO only, of course!).
The thing was, we (the employees) knew that the whole thing was falling to pieces, and the customers knew this as well. Unfortunately, the sad part was that the vast majority were quite indifferent. In a funny sort of way we hoped and prayed that people would complain to us and also to customer care (as it was called in those days!), but they very rarely did. Where does that leave us now?
Surely it has to be a good thing to complain and make your views known when you don't like something.
I started work at 16 as a postman, in the days when the service was really rather good...you know...first delivery always by 9.30 am (in the town), the postman had time for a quick chat, 2 deliveries a day. I stayed for 21 years, but over that time progressive governments ruined the service (IMO only, of course!).
The thing was, we (the employees) knew that the whole thing was falling to pieces, and the customers knew this as well. Unfortunately, the sad part was that the vast majority were quite indifferent. In a funny sort of way we hoped and prayed that people would complain to us and also to customer care (as it was called in those days!), but they very rarely did. Where does that leave us now?
Surely it has to be a good thing to complain and make your views known when you don't like something.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:12 am
#1502
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,741
I for one will certainly make my feelings clear to cabin crew when I take my next Club Europe flight, just to make sure that they do get feedback. However, I will do this in a constructive and polite way. I don't blame members of staff for the decisions their management take. I think they have a hard enough job as it is, and have had to deal with many bad developments over the years.
As I've said before, the new cabin looks great...but comfort and legroom have been compromised in my opinion.
As I've said before, the new cabin looks great...but comfort and legroom have been compromised in my opinion.
If they had kept the front part of the cabin at a wider pitch, with the refurbished cabins, most people here would have seen things as a real improvement.
Ok, so this might have resulted in loss of flexibility with CE loads, but I'm sure creative thinking could have overcome that. Plus, on domestics BA could have even charged more for the front rows, when there was no CE.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:16 am
#1503
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
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That's all very well, but would they have bought more tickets or paid more money for each ticket? Somehow, the intense focus here on getting more out of the airline for less money paid to it seems to suggest not, as does experience in the outside world.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:19 am
#1504
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,741
Do they need to ? Isn't BA actually profitable at the moment ?
Oct 27, 2014, 10:27 am
#1505
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 220
I think that people hope that by enough people complaining there will be a reversal. As there was with "Snug Europe" a few years back. However I don't think the complaints will make any difference in this case. The only thing that will is the numbers. If CE bookings reduce by enough to overcome any increase in ET revenue then the policy will change. If they don't it won't. BA is currently run by an accountant who looks at numbers first, not by someone with vision who would look at the brand first.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:30 am
#1506
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Provincie Antwerpen, Vlaanderen, België
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Posts: 2,512
Since the cost of the ticket appears to have remained constant, the issue is centred around apparently getting less (seat pitch, width and recline) for the same outlay.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:50 am
#1507
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Short-haul has struggled for years, under the onslaught from low-fare airlines. And UK/Ireland has really been the European leader in that. We've all known that BA short-haul has had to adapt or die. We could (and often do) argue endlessly about how much it's struggling and whether some of it is down to accounting inaccuracies; and we can argue about whether all of the changes are worthwhile. But it wouldn't be such a perennial industry topic if there wasn't something in it, and doing nothing couldn't really be a viable option.I'd be surprised if this were the case. My understanding is that short-haul yields have been under intense pressure for years because of competition.
Take the extreme case of the ex-EU J class sale fare: Just how much of that fare can justifiably be attributed to the short-haul connectors? It must be peanuts.
Take the extreme case of the ex-EU J class sale fare: Just how much of that fare can justifiably be attributed to the short-haul connectors? It must be peanuts.
Oct 27, 2014, 10:57 am
#1508
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
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Posts: 6,338
You make some fair points Globaliser, but if BA continues to copy the LCCs why would anyone bother to choose BA?
My guess is that there are a lot of customers who book with BA, aware that it is more expensive, but in the knowledge that the level of service is above the standard. At least that used to be the case.
My guess is that there are a lot of customers who book with BA, aware that it is more expensive, but in the knowledge that the level of service is above the standard. At least that used to be the case.
Oct 27, 2014, 11:03 am
#1509
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold, LH Sen, MUCCI, Junior Jet Club.
Posts: 8,103
BA is dreaming if it thinks it can ever compete with LCCs. LCCs have next to zero legacy costs, brand new fleets, highly efficient and punctual operations which enable high aircraft utilisation. BA can never beat them at their own game because of history and because of Heathrow.
Unfortunately the current batch of BA management seem to lack the imagination to try and compete using LHR as an asset, rather than a liability.
It makes absolutely no sense that the flagship airline at arguably the world's most premium airport (where it has a virtual monopoly) next to one of the world's biggest and richest cities, seems to have given up on the idea they can offer a premium product.
It's like Waitrose shutting a shop in Chelsea.
Unfortunately the current batch of BA management seem to lack the imagination to try and compete using LHR as an asset, rather than a liability.
It makes absolutely no sense that the flagship airline at arguably the world's most premium airport (where it has a virtual monopoly) next to one of the world's biggest and richest cities, seems to have given up on the idea they can offer a premium product.
It's like Waitrose shutting a shop in Chelsea.
Oct 27, 2014, 11:46 am
#1510
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BOS
Programs: BA Silver, Mucci
Posts: 5,289
Short-haul has struggled for years, under the onslaught from low-fare airlines. And UK/Ireland has really been the European leader in that. We've all known that BA short-haul has had to adapt or die. We could (and often do) argue endlessly about how much it's struggling and whether some of it is down to accounting inaccuracies; and we can argue about whether all of the changes are worthwhile. But it wouldn't be such a perennial industry topic if there wasn't something in it, and doing nothing couldn't really be a viable option.I'd be surprised if this were the case. My understanding is that short-haul yields have been under intense pressure for years because of competition.
Take the extreme case of the ex-EU J class sale fare: Just how much of that fare can justifiably be attributed to the short-haul connectors? It must be peanuts.
Take the extreme case of the ex-EU J class sale fare: Just how much of that fare can justifiably be attributed to the short-haul connectors? It must be peanuts.
Maybe the bean counters are getting it wrong. There are many factors involved in buying an airline ticket - price is only one of them.
How many of those seats would still be full at higher prices, and how many would pay a substantial further upcharge for a proper business class seat and service?
Oct 27, 2014, 3:47 pm
#1511
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
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Even the maths of this makes no sense.
On planes which are not full, there is no extra revenue but up to 100 annoyed passengers with less room.
On planes which are full, if revman did its job then those extra seats will have been sold cheaper than any other seats. Because, as you cannot increase demand by putting in more seats, logic dicates you must charge less to fill more.
Because of the pricing structure, the loss of one CE pax on a full fare to another airline due to less legroom will outweigh the income from all the other squeezed in pax whose tickets were sold at very low prices. On planes which are not full, there is no one extra to replace lost revenue.
On planes which are not full, there is no extra revenue but up to 100 annoyed passengers with less room.
On planes which are full, if revman did its job then those extra seats will have been sold cheaper than any other seats. Because, as you cannot increase demand by putting in more seats, logic dicates you must charge less to fill more.
Because of the pricing structure, the loss of one CE pax on a full fare to another airline due to less legroom will outweigh the income from all the other squeezed in pax whose tickets were sold at very low prices. On planes which are not full, there is no one extra to replace lost revenue.
Oct 27, 2014, 3:51 pm
#1512
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: London
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 439
Even the maths of this makes no sense.
On planes which are not full, there is no extra revenue but up to 100 annoyed passengers with less room.
On planes which are full, if revman did its job then those extra seats will have been sold cheaper than any other seats. Because, as you cannot increase demand by putting in more seats, logic dicates you must charge less to fill more.
Because of the pricing structure, the loss of one CE pax on a full fare to another airline due to less legroom will outweigh the income from all the other squeezed in pax whose tickets were sold at very low prices. On planes which are not full, there is no one extra to replace lost revenue.
On planes which are not full, there is no extra revenue but up to 100 annoyed passengers with less room.
On planes which are full, if revman did its job then those extra seats will have been sold cheaper than any other seats. Because, as you cannot increase demand by putting in more seats, logic dicates you must charge less to fill more.
Because of the pricing structure, the loss of one CE pax on a full fare to another airline due to less legroom will outweigh the income from all the other squeezed in pax whose tickets were sold at very low prices. On planes which are not full, there is no one extra to replace lost revenue.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:29 pm
#1513
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wedged somewhere between BTS and VIE ✈
Programs: Star Alliance Gold (A3 Gold), Oneworld Emerald (BA Gold), Hilton Diamond
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Oct 27, 2014, 4:29 pm
#1514
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,213
I would have thought it is the rev-man's job to sell those extra seats full fare, as regulars on the GLA route (for example) will be familiar with.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:31 pm
#1515
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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BA have updated their website Euro Traveller and Club Europe pages, with some images of the new cabin. Pictures which clearly showed the convertible seating have been removed (although some older images where the conversion isn't noticeable remain).
Interestingly no mention is made of the iPad 'holder' (in ET and CE) or the middle seat table in CE (although the table is shown in an image). Indeed, in a couple of photos, 'passengers' are holding iPads in their hands.
I also noticed no little paper mat under the glass in CE, which is obviously the most disturbing aspect of the update.
There was uproar when BA decided not to convert the CE seats a few years ago, and the conversion was swiftly reinstated. I can see a turnaround by BA given a year or two, with the removal of a row and an increase in pitch once again for the CE rows.
Interestingly no mention is made of the iPad 'holder' (in ET and CE) or the middle seat table in CE (although the table is shown in an image). Indeed, in a couple of photos, 'passengers' are holding iPads in their hands.
I also noticed no little paper mat under the glass in CE, which is obviously the most disturbing aspect of the update.
There was uproar when BA decided not to convert the CE seats a few years ago, and the conversion was swiftly reinstated. I can see a turnaround by BA given a year or two, with the removal of a row and an increase in pitch once again for the CE rows.