hsmall

We've just had the annual partners meeting of the law firm I am a member of, in Beijing. My husband and I were jeered at for taking a slightly cheaper and much more flexible (and more tier points but don't tell them that) with AY via HEL. At least we got back close to on time.

On the way back this last Sunday the incoming BA39 was delayed (a lot) by fog. The pilots apparently ran out of hours. As a result the outgoing BA38 was cancelled. (And 40 or so picky lawyers and their even more picky spouses seem to have liked the Langham Hotel Beijing where BA put them up, by the way, so good service recovery.) I have two questions:

First, what is the best site to use to get an accurate account of what happened to the plane, like whether the rumour that it only got as far as Ulan Bator is true or not! Flightstats can be inaccurate (the return flight shows as

BA 38
British Airways 12:10 PM 1:00 PM ~ T-3 2:55 PM 4:23 PM ~ T-5 Unknown
744

Which sort of implies the flight operated which it definitely did not)? Thanks.

Secondly, I wondered why there were only two people on the flight deck. PEK is prone to fog [some would say it's smog but as my firm is an "old friend of China" I of course call it fog] and I would have thought that that might be pretty close to the cutoff point where three people were prudent (SFO flights carry three flight crew I believe). I heard at first hand the cursing and swearing about BA that the cancellation entailed, and added to that is the cost of hotels etc.

FlyerTalker688786

1>, If the flight departs from China. You have to rely on whatever information you can get. There is Chinese version of flightstats but I doubt you can go anywhere.

2>, It is a flight over 10 hours, you sure they only have two crews?

3>, BA does flying, not create weather. So if it is weather related, I am afraid that you could not ask BA to put a third one unnecasseryly.

hsmall

1. The flight to which I was referring was the inbound flight from London and I would still be interested to know if there is something better than flightstats. But (OT) you are of course right that the Chinese state is not known for its commitment to transparency of information.

2. That is what those on the flight were told (actually the LHR-PEK is slightly less than 10 hours).

3. It is the weather indeed (accentuated by the Chinese government's backward attitude to environmental regulation) - my question was whether as a commercial matter ( I assume this happens a lot) it was worth having an extra crew member.

BApilotinsider

Operated to PEK recently. Definitely 3 pilots, always has been.

hsmall

Thanks. It's really odd that the pax were told that there were only two and that that was the reason the flight was unable to fly on from wherever it put down (Ulan Bator was mentioned).

G-AVFC

Yup, one Captain and two SFO's PEK & PVG

hsmall

Then the "out of hours" claim would be a terminological inexactitude?

LTN Phobia

If they had diverted, they might have gone out of hours there or will do so if they departed from where they had diverted.

globalste

It is highly likely the crew did not run out of hours, but mathematically it was possible that they could and therefore chose not to depart.

The third person is likely a cruise-relief pilot who does the flying during the cruise while the other two pilots take it in turn to rest, this extends the working window of the crew and the aircraft, but is not classed as 2 separate duty periods due to not enough rest.

If the aircraft gets delayed, then they can still run out of hours, eg delay of 4hours, plus flying time, plus alternate time, plus 45mins contingency and duty periods start from when they report for duty, eg turn up at airport an hour before.

The maximum depends on Airline Operational Procedures, but is often around 14hrs during exceptional circumstances, with rest periods required increasing if flying at night or early morning.

A BA pilot who does long haul will be able to explain this much better as they will know the exact hours permitted by the airline with a heavy crew.

LTN Phobia

Sorry to be pedantic but the reason why they do not count as 2 separate duty periods is not due to 'not enough rest' but because they are not free from all duties.

14 hours is a normal duty period under CAP 371 for acclimatised crew starting duty for a single sector day at 0800-1259 local, and that is without the in-flight relief crew and before the commander's discretion to extend the flight duty period. With in-flight relief crew it can be longer depending on how/how much the rest is taken.

I think you might be thinking of some parts of EU-OPS Subpart Q when you talk about "14 hours during exceptional circumstances"?

BERbound

www.thebasource.com is a good source of info, it has one mention of BA38 being delayed by fog.

Globaliser

If it had been closer to the event, ba.com might well have shown you where the aircraft went. But this is now too long ago to get information there.

Digging around on http://www.libhomeradar.org shows that G-CIVX operated BA39 on Sat 29 Oct, but did not operate back to London until Tue 1 Nov, possibly departing Peking about 6 or 7 am.

BA38 operated as normal on Sat 29 Oct (G-BYGE) and Mon 31 Oct (G-CIVW), each using the aircraft that departed London the previous day.

So it looks like VX may well have diverted somewhere on Sunday morning and not arrived in Peking until Monday. But, of course, this doesn't say anything about where she went.