Gaucho100K

Im with John on the Maestro issue.... Im a Merchant and accept all MasterCard International methods of payment and as far as I know they are still part of MC. There is a new company now called First Data that holds ownership, and I know that there is some rebranding going on... alas, Maestro is still very much part of MasterCard.

On a side note-- for those with memory... in Argentina MasterCard was known as ArgenCard until a few years back, especially for local credit cards. As weird as it may sound, some banks in Argentina still issue credit cards that are not valid internationally (ie they are only good in Argentina and some regional countries).

Gaucho100K

Well yes.... there are many issues to consider when wiring funds to Argentina, unless you go through some of the other standard methods like Western Union, that while painless, are very expensive and you cannot wire significant amounts of cash. Having said this, nowadays with all the additional regulations and controls of flows of capital, there is more paperwork involved in wiring funds to all countries... of course this is depending on how the wires and done and what amounts one is talking about.

Not to beat a deat horse... but remember that even if you can select ARS with your online bank (which is plain nonsense), no German bank deals in Pesos unless its their local branch established in Argentina and duly regulated by the BCRA (Argentine Central Bank). For any transcation that you will do with your bank in Germany, even if you can input an ARS amount it is a game of units of measure.

On your Mendoza question-- yes, the project is indeed for real and I know a few of the principals involved in the exact project you mention. It is not a scam, and for projects of its type, its one of the two best in its concept/category.

It is a lifestyle type purchase/investment... anybody that thinks he will make money from selling wines made under such a scale is simply dreaming.... however, as I state before these types of real estate plays are about having a second (or third) home in a region that you enjoy and having a different concept around it. To give a further example... some people like to have a second home in a place that you can ride horses... or play polo. Those folks will sometimes buy into a Country Club that has an Equestrian Club..... for folks that are serious wine aficionados, a second home with a Club that allows you to make your own wine is a natural choice.

Also, the ARS issues have very little to do in the analysis of investing in real-estate in Argentina. This is because, contrary to what many foreigners think, all real estate transactions are quoted and transacted in US Dollars, or even in Euros... just never in Pesos. This is a very long standing tradition in Argentina (more than 40 years old)... as real estate is together with hard currencies and precious metals have traditionally been the reserve "values" for Argentines looking to place their savings. Someone looking to invest in something like this is not looking for a quick short term flip.... and taking a more paused back stance perspective, prices of land in Mendoza as one of the world capitals in wine are still grossly undervalued (no matter in what currency you measure it).

1MIOflight-km

Gaucho100K, SoFlyOn, I have not tried to withdraw cash with my Mastercard Credit Card. I presume I would run into the same 320,- pesos limit problem. Paying for several 1K pesos with it was no problem some weeks back either in Córdoba and BA.
FirstData also owns ownership of Mastercard and related brands here in Germany lately. That Maestro is no longer part of MasterCard was, as I had written, being told to me by a customer service guy from MasterCard; I do not remember if in the US or Germany, when I started to call around because of my withdrwal problem some weeks ago while being in Argentina.
As well as MasterCard being ArgenCard some years ago in Argentina, as well in Germany it has been Eurocard for ages, but as far as I know, with no local limitations.

1MIOflight-km

This link is in spanish. Maybe this is the background to the withdrawal limit. Use with caution... http://www.seprin.com/portal2/portal..._from=&ucat=4&

USAFAN

Checked my account ... I had no 320 ARS limit problem: End of November 2007 I cashed 1000 ARS at Banco Nation with my German ATM Maestro card and was charged 219 Euros including fees....which reflected about the rate published at Bloomberg.

However, I recognized recently, that this German ATM Maestro card might not be 100% save. I used the card in Portugal and on two occasions (gas station & restaurant) no PIN was needed, only a signature.

1MIOflight-km

11/2007 I had no problem either in Argentina to withdraw +320 pesos from ATM's with Maestro. Problems started 04/2008. I do not need a PIN with my German Maestro in many places within Germany. Even if it has a chip and provides for PIN. Seems like some German merchants are still in the process to implement PIN function yet. Maybe in Portugal they thought it was a credit card ...
I've even been able to pay on Maestro in Norway and Denmark on signature...

USAFAN

Gaucho100K:

First of all THANK YOU! You are really well informed!I believe, all is true what you write regarding the wire transfer!
Next, your information regarding real estate is very valuable. I was not aware, that all real estate transaction are done in US-$. However, I have never seen advertised RE prices in ARS, only US-$. So, people (from Argentina that is) who purchased property when 1 ARS was 1 US-$ had a nice windfall profit after 2001/2002; however, only when they sold, right?
Or did the rent (for an investment property) increase by factor 3? I know, it's far OT, and I really don't expect an answer on this, just curious....like a smart taxi driver in Buenos Aires who asked me about prices in the US: meat, bread, gas/diesel and cars ....

Thanks again^

SoFlyOn

My understanding of the reason for ATM limitations is the same as that posted upthread by Jaimito.

About a year ago I was reading that the VISA/Plus network affiliates in Argentina were unhappy with the decreased fee they would receive for the use of their ATMs, and decided to increase revenue by forcing multiple transactions.

It seemed highly likely that the Argentine MasterCard/Cirrus network would eventually follow suit (it's free money after all). And that's what happened in the first week of April. Any anecdotal accounts before this time are spurious.

Required reading:
http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php...reign_Exchange

Information on First Data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Data
http://www.firstdata.com/
John

1MIOflight-km

SoFlyOn, might be, but nobody is able to confirm it anywhere that that is the background.

SoFlyOn

1MIOflight-km - How do German Banks treat ATM transactions on credit cards? In the US, they are treated as cash advances, and thus accrue high interest charges from the withdrawal date. You used to be able to overpay your credit card before traveling abroad to mitigate this problem, but at least with my credit cards that avenue was closed off some time ago.

I've never been able to find more than anecdotal evidence for the ATM restrictions either, but there again, I wouldn't expect a press release from an Argentina bank explaining why

John

1MIOflight-km

John, talking only about my German Mastercard, that would be the case, cash advance at high interest charge.

I assume that is the case with all other credit cards in Germany.

I've only done a cash advance some 17 years ago on a German Visa in Italy.

There is no way to "overpay" it before a travel.

The Amount due at closing date (normally at about mid month) is either debited in full or in part (previously agreed partial payment part between card owner and bank) from your bank account it is linked to, directly.

So you could withdraw cash up to your total card limit, usually between 2-8K EUR, depending on the monthly income on your account or personal income.

Regarding actual argentine ATM restrictions on foreign cards, I would at least expect Mastercard/Maestro to know and be able to inform.
But that seems not to be the case, at least here in Germany.
My Bank has been digging into that for 4 weeks now with no response...

I would never expect a press release or alike in Argentina on that...
I've lived there far too long to know that.

Nevertheless, my Bank is willing to reduce the fees (min. 4,- EUR or 1%), so if they reduce them down to a level that it equals my previous (wifes) monthly costs, I'm done with this and Mastercard/Maestro/Cirrus Argentina can claim all they want.

SoFlyOn

Another angle that hasn't been discussed is the situation with Bank of America debit cards and affiliate banks.

Barclays, BNP Paribas, China Construction Bank, Deutsche Bank, Santander Serfin, Scotiabank, and Westpac allow BofA customers fee-free ATM transactions (but it's not clear whether, for example, BNP Paribas ATMs outside of France would waive the ATM fee). If I remember correctly Alex has personal experience with this scenario?

I also don't know whether all members of this alliance have reciprocal agreements. Does anyone have information that could be of use? Especially for European-based FTers traveling/residing in Argentina who would like to utilize their European bank accounts without being gouged.

John

SoFlyOn

1MIOflight-km - Ever since the restrictions imposed by VISA/Plus-Banelco in February 2007, no US or European VISA debit card holders have been able to receive any kind of explanation from their home banks as to why the situation evolved. The expat bulletin boards have hundreds of threads describing the frustration of expats with their home banks seeking an explanation. So I wouldn't expect your bank in Germany to be any more forthcoming.

John

SoFlyOn

This was in the latest newsletter from the US Embassy in BsAs:

9. Update on ATM Withdrawal Limits

Last July, Visa debit- and credit-card holders got a surprise when ATM machines restricted withdrawal limits to about USD $100. MasterCard cardholders got the same surprise in late March. ACS has contacted card companies, banks and Argentine government officials to determine the cause of the restriction. So far, no clear reason for the change has emerged and no party is willing to take credit for this inconvenience to clients.

The good news, however, is that in response to receiving hundreds of complaints both Visa and MasterCard have doubled their withdrawal limits to USD $200. Both companies also explain that cardholders are free to make multiple successive withdrawals at the same machine up to their bank's daily withdrawal limit. ACS continues to research the issue to determine the exact cause for the restriction on international ATM withdrawals and learn how much international cardholders pay in ATM fees as the teller machines do not normally provide this information.

That's good new about the increase in withdrawal limits. They did however get wrong when the problems started with VISA (and complaints were received by the Embassy when it started in Feb 2007), and it should be pointed out that the withdrawal limits are actually in pesos should anyone mistakenly think they can get US$ from a Argentine ATM if they are do not have a bank account there.

We'll see if it's now true that you can withdraw funds up till your daily limit since that's not been true in the past (I've been cut off after 4 or five transactions).

John

1MIOflight-km

As of today there seems to be no change, my wife still cannot withdraw more than 320,- pesos with our german Mastercard related to our german bank account. She's tried with 640,- pesos and less, no chance.
If anyone has been able to, please state details.