Dining choices Lake Shore and Capital Limited
Aug 16, 2018, 8:35 am
#31
Join Date: May 2006
Programs: Amtrak, AA, USA, DL, UA, MW, SWA, MW, AirTran, Priority Club, Marriott, Hilton, Chc Prvlgs, BW
Posts: 101
1. The obvious reason Amtrak has done little to improve LD routes is that they have the real numbers and know that increasing ridership would increase Amtrak's losses, not improve its bottom line.
2. I am not vouching for numbers Amtrak puts out to the public. They might be wrong for all sorts of reasons. I am saying that Amtrak, INTERNALLY, knows the real numbers, and when Amtrak makes a business decision the NARP disagrees with (such as cutting meal service on 1 overnight LD trains), that is usually going to be because the Amtrak decisionmakers have to use real numbers whereas the NARP is an advocacy organization that uses all sorts of accounting tricks to further the goals of its membership, which includes a ton of people who love LD trains and want them to be luxurious.
3. Rest in peace AlanB. He was a great moderator.
2. I am not vouching for numbers Amtrak puts out to the public. They might be wrong for all sorts of reasons. I am saying that Amtrak, INTERNALLY, knows the real numbers, and when Amtrak makes a business decision the NARP disagrees with (such as cutting meal service on 1 overnight LD trains), that is usually going to be because the Amtrak decisionmakers have to use real numbers whereas the NARP is an advocacy organization that uses all sorts of accounting tricks to further the goals of its membership, which includes a ton of people who love LD trains and want them to be luxurious.
3. Rest in peace AlanB. He was a great moderator.
Many mistrust Amtrak's numbers, which are often skewed. Their inept management distorted the real numbers in proposing discontinuing the SW Chief. It's clear its Fly Boy CEO knows little about accounting or facts, and next to nothing about train travel.
Still, you aren't any kind of authority to attack NARP or explain why Amtrak does or doesn't improve the national system trains, which are responsible for about 40% of its seat miles and are experiencing record ridership.
Aug 16, 2018, 12:31 pm
#32
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: PHL
Programs: AA(PPro), UA, AGR, BW(Plat), HH, WoH, MB(S)
Posts: 778
Your seat miles stat is not an attribute of the long distance service. It's part of the problem.
In FY 2017, the long distance trains accounted for 35.9% of Amtrak seat miles. The problem is that the long distance trains only generated 16.8% of Amtrak operating revenue. Compare that to Acela. Acela represented just 8.4% of seat miles, but 19.3% of Amtrak operating revenue. By that simple comparison - 35.9% of the seat miles and 16.8% of the revenue, the long distance trains under performed the rest the Amtrak system. Acela generated revenue of over 57 cents per seat mile. The long distance trains less then 12 cents. Another way - the 20 Acela trainsets - just 120 passenger cars - generated more operating revenue than all the long distance Amfeet II, Viewliner and Superliner cars combined (over 500 cars).
The simple facts that so many seat miles are generated by the long distance trains yet so little revenue results from that effort does not exactly support the long distance system.
In FY 2017, the long distance trains accounted for 35.9% of Amtrak seat miles. The problem is that the long distance trains only generated 16.8% of Amtrak operating revenue. Compare that to Acela. Acela represented just 8.4% of seat miles, but 19.3% of Amtrak operating revenue. By that simple comparison - 35.9% of the seat miles and 16.8% of the revenue, the long distance trains under performed the rest the Amtrak system. Acela generated revenue of over 57 cents per seat mile. The long distance trains less then 12 cents. Another way - the 20 Acela trainsets - just 120 passenger cars - generated more operating revenue than all the long distance Amfeet II, Viewliner and Superliner cars combined (over 500 cars).
The simple facts that so many seat miles are generated by the long distance trains yet so little revenue results from that effort does not exactly support the long distance system.
Aug 17, 2018, 6:36 am
#33
Join Date: Jan 2003
Programs: American Airlines Platinum, National Executive
Posts: 3,790
Your seat miles stat is not an attribute of the long distance service. It's part of the problem.
In FY 2017, the long distance trains accounted for 35.9% of Amtrak seat miles. The problem is that the long distance trains only generated 16.8% of Amtrak operating revenue. Compare that to Acela. Acela represented just 8.4% of seat miles, but 19.3% of Amtrak operating revenue. By that simple comparison - 35.9% of the seat miles and 16.8% of the revenue, the long distance trains under performed the rest the Amtrak system. Acela generated revenue of over 57 cents per seat mile. The long distance trains less then 12 cents. Another way - the 20 Acela trainsets - just 120 passenger cars - generated more operating revenue than all the long distance Amfeet II, Viewliner and Superliner cars combined (over 500 cars).
The simple facts that so many seat miles are generated by the long distance trains yet so little revenue results from that effort does not exactly support the long distance system.
In FY 2017, the long distance trains accounted for 35.9% of Amtrak seat miles. The problem is that the long distance trains only generated 16.8% of Amtrak operating revenue. Compare that to Acela. Acela represented just 8.4% of seat miles, but 19.3% of Amtrak operating revenue. By that simple comparison - 35.9% of the seat miles and 16.8% of the revenue, the long distance trains under performed the rest the Amtrak system. Acela generated revenue of over 57 cents per seat mile. The long distance trains less then 12 cents. Another way - the 20 Acela trainsets - just 120 passenger cars - generated more operating revenue than all the long distance Amfeet II, Viewliner and Superliner cars combined (over 500 cars).
The simple facts that so many seat miles are generated by the long distance trains yet so little revenue results from that effort does not exactly support the long distance system.
So the Acela generates a lot of revenue, but it also generates much higher costs than some other trains.
Aug 20, 2018, 5:26 pm
#34
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
I sincerely doubt you have access to the "real numbers" and know what's right and what isn't.
Many mistrust Amtrak's numbers, which are often skewed. Their inept management distorted the real numbers in proposing discontinuing the SW Chief. It's clear its Fly Boy CEO knows little about accounting or facts, and next to nothing about train travel.
Still, you aren't any kind of authority to attack NARP or explain why Amtrak does or doesn't improve the national system trains, which are responsible for about 40% of its seat miles and are experiencing record ridership.
Many mistrust Amtrak's numbers, which are often skewed. Their inept management distorted the real numbers in proposing discontinuing the SW Chief. It's clear its Fly Boy CEO knows little about accounting or facts, and next to nothing about train travel.
Still, you aren't any kind of authority to attack NARP or explain why Amtrak does or doesn't improve the national system trains, which are responsible for about 40% of its seat miles and are experiencing record ridership.
There's no basis to distrust this process.
Aug 23, 2018, 1:49 pm
#35
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PDX
Programs: DL DM, AS MVP 100K, Amtrak peon, Colbert Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 4,534
Amtrak’s Route Accounting: Fatally Flawed, Misleading & Wrong
No way to run a passenger railroad
Note that the author of the latter piece regularly offers as withering of critiques of RPA (NARP) as you do, yet they all reach the same conclusion which has been a poorly-kept secret for a long time: Amtrak's cost allocation disproportionately handicaps national network routes with full-service amenities. I look forward to your citations to the contrary.
Aug 25, 2018, 10:24 pm
#36
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Federal Way, WA
Programs: Mileage Plus 2P, Marriott Silver, many others
Posts: 1,305
The simple fact is that there is not a single passenger rail network in the world that makes money (except perhaps a limited number of commuter routes). The rest of the world, though, considers rail service to be a necessary social service.
The problem in the US is that the politicians see any money for Amtrak as a "subsidy" because it goes toward operating costs rather than capital investment. It doesn't matter that the return on investment on highways is -100%, and airports aren't much better. Those are infrastructure expenditures, so they're not considered subsidies.
We're also obsessed with speed and caring only about those in major markets. Travelers in, say, the middle of North Dakota don't have much option other than the train and its horrible schedules.
Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions to the political problems causing all these issues in the first place. And yes, the CEO's purpose is to completely dismantle the system outside the Northeast Corridor and state-funded routes. That's his mandate from the Executive Branch (I don't have a citation at hand, but it's out there).
The problem in the US is that the politicians see any money for Amtrak as a "subsidy" because it goes toward operating costs rather than capital investment. It doesn't matter that the return on investment on highways is -100%, and airports aren't much better. Those are infrastructure expenditures, so they're not considered subsidies.
We're also obsessed with speed and caring only about those in major markets. Travelers in, say, the middle of North Dakota don't have much option other than the train and its horrible schedules.
Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions to the political problems causing all these issues in the first place. And yes, the CEO's purpose is to completely dismantle the system outside the Northeast Corridor and state-funded routes. That's his mandate from the Executive Branch (I don't have a citation at hand, but it's out there).
Aug 26, 2018, 5:30 pm
#37
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 367
That's an extremely bold claim to make without actively citing a source and simply saying "it's out there." If that's their goal, they're sure taking their sweet time doing so.
Jul 16, 2019, 8:39 am
#38
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: PHL, LHR
Posts: 219
Trump administration budget would end long-distance Amtrak trains, cut DOT spending | Trains Magazine
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-proposal.html
https://fortune.com/2018/02/12/amtra...spending-plan/