centurion case study
Nov 29, 2006 | 5:54 am
#16
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Miami, FL, USA
Posts: 4,104
Originally Posted by ILUVCITIBANK
aviators, mid-tier with "four major US" chain hotels or with domestic US airlines are available with minimal effort in a given year's span.
A) HHONORS GOLD obtainable w/ $20K spend w/ their HHONORS AMEX
B) starwood GOLD obtainable w/ even less spend w/ their AMEX/SPG card (I don't have the time to check but $10K comes to mind)
C) My spouse received an unsolicited offer for AA/GOLD last year, via starwood (I think was the co-sponsor of the promo), having not paid for an AA tix in years nor spent 2 paid nights w/ starwood last year in her name
THree quick off the top of my head examples.
In any given year, there are numerous ways to get mid-tier elite levels with almost any given airline or hotel, and not through massive effort...usually if not often just by watching flyertalk threads and calling in or doing some mundane task or registering for some obscure promo.
In short, mid-tiers are of little value w/ many if not the majority of hotel and airlines...and mid-tier TANGIBLE benefits (not paper tiger benefits, or benefits "subject to some cap control) are degrading more and more each year. If mid-tier is the best AMEX CENT can come up with, then they will continue to bleed off subscribers.
A) HHONORS GOLD obtainable w/ $20K spend w/ their HHONORS AMEX
B) starwood GOLD obtainable w/ even less spend w/ their AMEX/SPG card (I don't have the time to check but $10K comes to mind)
C) My spouse received an unsolicited offer for AA/GOLD last year, via starwood (I think was the co-sponsor of the promo), having not paid for an AA tix in years nor spent 2 paid nights w/ starwood last year in her name
THree quick off the top of my head examples.
In any given year, there are numerous ways to get mid-tier elite levels with almost any given airline or hotel, and not through massive effort...usually if not often just by watching flyertalk threads and calling in or doing some mundane task or registering for some obscure promo.
In short, mid-tiers are of little value w/ many if not the majority of hotel and airlines...and mid-tier TANGIBLE benefits (not paper tiger benefits, or benefits "subject to some cap control) are degrading more and more each year. If mid-tier is the best AMEX CENT can come up with, then they will continue to bleed off subscribers.
That being said, I agree (and this also doesn't contradict what I said) that Centurion will lose subscribers if that's all they have to offer. They won't lose me because I still think it's worth it, but for many people it's not worth it anymore.
Nov 30, 2006 | 8:23 am
#17
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: Leaders Program, Supreme Commander Platinum
Posts: 160
Yes, I know what you say is true, but it does not contradict what I said. I made no mention of the hotel status at all (I think it's useless; thank goodness I already have SPG plat.). There's a big difference between mid-tier elite status on 1 airline from mid-tier elite status on multiple airlines. It has changed the whole way I travel since I got the card in July. It used to be that I only flew Continental (since it is the only airline I had mid-tier status on my own). Now I can pick my airline based on schedule and comfort. I find that to be a big benefit.
That being said, I agree (and this also doesn't contradict what I said) that Centurion will lose subscribers if that's all they have to offer. They won't lose me because I still think it's worth it, but for many people it's not worth it anymore.
That being said, I agree (and this also doesn't contradict what I said) that Centurion will lose subscribers if that's all they have to offer. They won't lose me because I still think it's worth it, but for many people it's not worth it anymore.
What benefits have I used? I have saved (yes saved) thousands of dollars through time of booking upgrades and maybe a thousand +/- with free MO rooms. I understand (from another thread on FT) that MO may change to only suites. I LOVE it. Funny story...one of the first rooms I booked on the Centurion was a stay in the oriental suite at a MO. I was pissed when I was told the free night DID NOT apply to suites...booked it anyway.
I am hoping Centurion will not replace the SPG plat with some other comparable program, but instead have something that focuses more on the high end. Like what (potentially?) is happening with MO. Maybe 30% off all FS rack rates...or presidential suites 50% off 2 nights at all hotels. How about: FC tickets purchased at any price get second FC at 50% off. Maybe a real limo program ;-) . It seems like SPG plat is good if you are staying at the sheraton, but I am hoping Centurion is thinking higher end.
Nov 30, 2006 | 7:16 pm
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IAD/DCA
Posts: 31,871
I am hoping Centurion will not replace the SPG plat with some other comparable program, but instead have something that focuses more on the high end. Like what (potentially?) is happening with MO. Maybe 30% off all FS rack rates...or presidential suites 50% off 2 nights at all hotels. How about: FC tickets purchased at any price get second FC at 50% off. Maybe a real limo program ;-) . It seems like SPG plat is good if you are staying at the sheraton, but I am hoping Centurion is thinking higher end.
Dec 2, 2006 | 12:22 pm
#19
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: CA/NY USA
Posts: 721
LittleFlyer, with all due respect, and not casting doubt on your reporting what you heard...does anyone in the room feel AMEX's true cost is $2500/yr per cardholder...ie they are *breaking even* or even losing money, on CENTURION ?
Please. I can't imagine in my mind's eye that AMEX would intentionally offer a program which operated on a hard financial loss basis. If so, I have even less respect for them than I did.
As a merchant myself who accepts all four major ccards in the US (AMEX, V, MC, and DIS), trust me - AMEX charges the highest discount of all card issuers (as much as 2.5 to 4.5% depending on the business profile, when V charges 2% or less; thus AMEX's 3.5% (lets use the median discount in this hypothetical case) is a whopping 57% (2/3.5) more than their competitors' product). Thus, AMEX has a MUCH HIGHER profit margin to support their affinity program(s), whether CENT or PLAT or MR. This is partly ameliorated by the fact that AMEX's CHARGE products do not typically allow for balance carry-over which would generate INTEREST REVENUE, while V/MC/DIS by definition make INTEREST REVENUE (not consider AMEX's OPTIMA products; only their charge products).
Knowing this then, when they induce their highest-charging class (by definition $250K spend annual threshold = their highest-charging class) of ccardholders to upgrade to the CENT program, this same class MUST proportionately also generate the most revenue PER CAPITA of any of their card-holding classes. Thus, if they claim they are losing money on the CENT program then, IMO, its only because they play shell games with SGA, overhead and internal costs and dump them into the CENT program.
Since they have hemorrhaged affinity partners practically since the CENT perk package was released, I can't think they have increased their maintenance costs of the CENT program, per se...AMEX has only reduced, diminished, and degraded the CENT perk package since inception (or allowed it to happen - same difference to me).
Please. I can't imagine in my mind's eye that AMEX would intentionally offer a program which operated on a hard financial loss basis. If so, I have even less respect for them than I did.
As a merchant myself who accepts all four major ccards in the US (AMEX, V, MC, and DIS), trust me - AMEX charges the highest discount of all card issuers (as much as 2.5 to 4.5% depending on the business profile, when V charges 2% or less; thus AMEX's 3.5% (lets use the median discount in this hypothetical case) is a whopping 57% (2/3.5) more than their competitors' product). Thus, AMEX has a MUCH HIGHER profit margin to support their affinity program(s), whether CENT or PLAT or MR. This is partly ameliorated by the fact that AMEX's CHARGE products do not typically allow for balance carry-over which would generate INTEREST REVENUE, while V/MC/DIS by definition make INTEREST REVENUE (not consider AMEX's OPTIMA products; only their charge products).
Knowing this then, when they induce their highest-charging class (by definition $250K spend annual threshold = their highest-charging class) of ccardholders to upgrade to the CENT program, this same class MUST proportionately also generate the most revenue PER CAPITA of any of their card-holding classes. Thus, if they claim they are losing money on the CENT program then, IMO, its only because they play shell games with SGA, overhead and internal costs and dump them into the CENT program.
Since they have hemorrhaged affinity partners practically since the CENT perk package was released, I can't think they have increased their maintenance costs of the CENT program, per se...AMEX has only reduced, diminished, and degraded the CENT perk package since inception (or allowed it to happen - same difference to me).
Dec 2, 2006 | 12:59 pm
#20
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: UGS, AA CK
Posts: 213
Dec 2, 2006 | 1:04 pm
#21
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: UGS, AA CK
Posts: 213
aviators, mid-tier with "four major US" chain hotels or with domestic US airlines are available with minimal effort in a given year's span.
A) HHONORS GOLD obtainable w/ $20K spend w/ their HHONORS AMEX
B) starwood GOLD obtainable w/ even less spend w/ their AMEX/SPG card (I don't have the time to check but $10K comes to mind)
C) My spouse received an unsolicited offer for AA/GOLD last year, via starwood (I think was the co-sponsor of the promo), having not paid for an AA tix in years nor spent 2 paid nights w/ starwood last year in her name
THree quick off the top of my head examples.
In any given year, there are numerous ways to get mid-tier elite levels with almost any given airline or hotel, and not through massive effort...usually if not often just by watching flyertalk threads and calling in or doing some mundane task or registering for some obscure promo.
In short, mid-tiers are of little value w/ many if not the majority of hotel and airlines...and mid-tier TANGIBLE benefits (not paper tiger benefits, or benefits "subject to some cap control) are degrading more and more each year. If mid-tier is the best AMEX CENT can come up with, then they will continue to bleed off subscribers.
A) HHONORS GOLD obtainable w/ $20K spend w/ their HHONORS AMEX
B) starwood GOLD obtainable w/ even less spend w/ their AMEX/SPG card (I don't have the time to check but $10K comes to mind)
C) My spouse received an unsolicited offer for AA/GOLD last year, via starwood (I think was the co-sponsor of the promo), having not paid for an AA tix in years nor spent 2 paid nights w/ starwood last year in her name
THree quick off the top of my head examples.
In any given year, there are numerous ways to get mid-tier elite levels with almost any given airline or hotel, and not through massive effort...usually if not often just by watching flyertalk threads and calling in or doing some mundane task or registering for some obscure promo.
In short, mid-tiers are of little value w/ many if not the majority of hotel and airlines...and mid-tier TANGIBLE benefits (not paper tiger benefits, or benefits "subject to some cap control) are degrading more and more each year. If mid-tier is the best AMEX CENT can come up with, then they will continue to bleed off subscribers.
Dec 2, 2006 | 2:28 pm
#22
Join Date: Sep 2006
Programs: MR Gold, Hilton Gold, US Silver, WN No Luv
Posts: 100
AMEX's CENTURION perks, at least for the US, are such a paper tiger, already diluted to what they rolled out with, that there is really not much lower it can go. The PLAT card now is functionally equivalent to the CENT card in terms of bundled perks, which begs the question of "why bother to pay more for the CENT card ??...
..Literally, the only reason I continue to hold the card is because I am grandfathered at the $1000 annual rate, thus my incremental cost vs holding the PLAT card is negligible...
..Literally, the only reason I continue to hold the card is because I am grandfathered at the $1000 annual rate, thus my incremental cost vs holding the PLAT card is negligible...
Secondly, I guarantee you that their airline and hotel partners are shaking them down for more money. Everyone views AMEX as a company with deep pockets, particularly airlines! With 4 of the 6 major airlines recently in/out of bankrupty you can bet they renegotiated the rates they charge Amex for the status.
Dec 3, 2006 | 8:07 am
#23
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southlake, Texas
Programs: HH Diamond, EXP American Airlines, Presidents Circle-Hertz, Amex Platinum
Posts: 109
my friend has centurion and there isn't many difference now between plat and centurion. He is considering downgrading and saving the $2500
Dec 4, 2006 | 8:23 am
#24
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: Leaders Program, Supreme Commander Platinum
Posts: 160
...but not on three airlines. Esp ones you don't often fly on. For the status it is a great perk. I just don't think status does me any good. Maybe if it discounted FC. ;-)
Dec 4, 2006 | 8:42 am
#25
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: Leaders Program, Supreme Commander Platinum
Posts: 160
"Centurion isn't worth it because it has been watered down."
"Centurion isn't any better than Plat."
"Visa signature has better X than Centurion."
"Chairman is better than Centurion."
"Gold is really all you need."
These are really moronic statements and yet I hear them all the time.
Why is your friend "considering" downgrading if "there isn't many difference" between plat and cent? Why doesn't he just cancel? Is it hard to figure out?
I know much of the time these friends,friends of friends, family members, and "REAL" stories are made up. (I esp liked the guy that gave us the story about being embarrased to use his card - which from other posts he apparently didn't have). So many of these post are made up - generally so they can comment on the Centurion.
This all leads to...I think FT should have BS feedback rating. If you post confirmed BS you get a score next to your name that reflects that.
Dec 10, 2006 | 12:26 am
#27
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Palm Springs ca
Programs: aa lifetime platinum
Posts: 747
i love the addition of the PriorityPass and use it often. i could have bought this myself ,but didnt know about it. i did get upgraded on us air to their- non-first class on 4 out of 4 segments- due to the gold card.
It is something i can live without but it is a nice perk. Their travel service is an abuse, but there are many rants about that elsewhere. i hope no smart FTer's ever got suckered in to one of their " deals".
just my 2 cents as a "grandfather".........
Interesting , when I call up and ask about the Priority Pass lounges available- they do change- to a centurion rep- they dont know what priority pass even is.
they insist on reading you the script on priority club- try it sometime, its quite amusing if you're bored and need a little chuckle, incompetence at a large company at its finest and most flagrant...... and this to its best and supposedly most monied customers !!!!!!!
It is something i can live without but it is a nice perk. Their travel service is an abuse, but there are many rants about that elsewhere. i hope no smart FTer's ever got suckered in to one of their " deals".
just my 2 cents as a "grandfather".........
Interesting , when I call up and ask about the Priority Pass lounges available- they do change- to a centurion rep- they dont know what priority pass even is.
they insist on reading you the script on priority club- try it sometime, its quite amusing if you're bored and need a little chuckle, incompetence at a large company at its finest and most flagrant...... and this to its best and supposedly most monied customers !!!!!!!
Dec 10, 2006 | 4:42 am
#28
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hsinchu (Taiwan), Saigon, London
Programs: EVA (diamond), A3, BMI, VN
Posts: 2,960
One time I phoned and got through to Thomas Cook. The rep asked me "what is your service provider". Turns out a bug in the system meant they didn't know who their callers were calling. She clarified by giving me a list including Amex. Since the secret was "out" I just asked her would I get a better deal with another "provider". Answer was yes - and she would have no problem putting the order through on that code. Could still pay with Amex! In the end I didn't bother.
Running your business this way might make good business sense, but not if its not seamless. Also it licenses Amex to just tell you that something is "not their fault" or is an issue "for another department" (ie outsourced elsewhere).
Now when I get through to a call centre I sometimes ask the staff if they are working for other providers except the one I called and whether there is anything better on offer. Of course sometimes they can't answer. But other times (especially when its the centres based in the UK rather than India) they are jolly happy to help out.
Dec 10, 2006 | 2:52 pm
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Point Place, Wisconsin
Programs: LH HON, BA Gold, EK Gold
Posts: 14,508
I Germany they have already given us Priority Club Platinum level as a replacement for SPG Plat. I am already looking forward to the upgrades at the Holiday Inn Express !
MO benefits (up to now) have usually paid for most of my annual fee ( 1.000 in Germany). At an annual fee of USD 2.500 I would probably bin the card, as I have all the airline and hotel status I need (and more) through my travel pattern anyway.
MO benefits (up to now) have usually paid for most of my annual fee ( 1.000 in Germany). At an annual fee of USD 2.500 I would probably bin the card, as I have all the airline and hotel status I need (and more) through my travel pattern anyway.
Dec 13, 2006 | 12:08 pm
#30
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: La Jolla, CA
Programs: Marriott Ambassador, Lifetime Titanium, Delta Plat, Hilton Diamond , Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 2,615
ILUV--- I respect your analysis and agree that Cent has irked me this year with the take-aways. I will also admit that my primary motivation for getting the card was SPG Plat status.
However-- despite this year's "bait and switch" I still believe the card is worth it. At least to me.
I guarantee you I would cancel it in a minute if the cost/benefit didn't come out in my favor.
I definitely reap benes worth over $2500 (I'm so jealous of your grandfathered status) Delta FC upgrades (and reciprocal elite status on other airlines), Priority Airport Club and Hotel upgrades have been totaling more than my annual fee. I also have benefited from the extra 4 hours returning Hertz cars.
The *status factor* is worthless. The concierges aren't very good. But I used to hate my Delta mileage runs and as long as my calculator shows a net benefit, I'll keep it.
(But I sure wish they would restore the SPG plat status)
However-- despite this year's "bait and switch" I still believe the card is worth it. At least to me.
I guarantee you I would cancel it in a minute if the cost/benefit didn't come out in my favor.
I definitely reap benes worth over $2500 (I'm so jealous of your grandfathered status) Delta FC upgrades (and reciprocal elite status on other airlines), Priority Airport Club and Hotel upgrades have been totaling more than my annual fee. I also have benefited from the extra 4 hours returning Hertz cars.
The *status factor* is worthless. The concierges aren't very good. But I used to hate my Delta mileage runs and as long as my calculator shows a net benefit, I'll keep it.
(But I sure wish they would restore the SPG plat status)
Last edited by damon88; Jan 30, 2008 at 10:56 am Reason: correct a typo