walkingingotham

You are not doing Amex a favor by defending it on this. It is clearly an abuse by Amex.


Maybe read more carefully again? The OP did mention "his/her balance right now is well over $5K after all the credits." Of course it is an abuse by Amex.

mia

I am not defending American Express. I am explaining how it works, based on my direct personal experience with this process, as well as what I have learned from reading posts in this forum.

For clarification, I believe Gasolin asked why American Express considers a return to be an abuse of their rewards system. That's not the same as asking whether American Express's reaction is abusive.

Gasolin

I realize my sentence might be confusing. I am asking why AMEX thinks that the refund of a amount is an "abuse" of the T&C.

Is there a difference between buying for $10,000 and refunding $2,000, thus having a balance of $8000, and buying for $10,000 and paying yourself $2,000?

Gasolin

Ah thanks Mia, so it's not an abuse per se. What does this manual review assess exactly? If the refund was legitimate?

golfingboy

Gasolin

So why is that a problem for AMEX? Isn't that just a payment of $10,000 by using the card and a "payment" of $2,000, just as if you paid a part of your balance yourself?
Or is that something related to the transaction fees they may need to reimburse the merchant?

golfingboy

kutzsche

Once you paid off your statement in full, they got your money. If you were to then make a return and try to close your account, they could simply require you to pay for the points. In fact, even if you used up the points and made the returns before the statement closes, they could demand payment for those points if you ask to close your account.
My saga has been going on for months now. Today I got a call from someone with the amex rewards program who told me he's working with the "abuse team" to manually reinstate my bonus points since I have long hit the spending requirement. I asked if that wouldn't happen automatically at the end of the 90 day period and the answer was no. Once the "abuse team" removes points they won't be given back. This is pretty nuts.
Again, they considered it abusive that I made a $500 return on a total spend of over $7000 (vs a spending requirement of only $1000). Once you hit the spending requirement, if any subsequent return, even just for a day, even in the middle of your statement period, triggers you to temporarily go back under your spend limit, then this is considered an "abuse" and you forfeit all bonus points. This is completely and utterly insane. So make sure you have no returns whatsoever.
​​​​​​My bigger issue is that almost all the amex folks are completely clueless. You get different stories told by every person you speak to. Their fine print in the rules say, by the way, that they can remove points for any action they deem abusive. Without stating what this defines. So if I ever open an amex card again, I will make sure to never make a single return on the card in those first 3 months. And make purchases I may have to return like clothes at Macy's with another card.

kutzsche

Update. After months of struggle, the "abuse team" has reverted their decision and given the 50k bonus point back. Nonetheless, their reasoning makes no sense and the entire process is insulting.

kutzsche

One final comment. As I understand, once they take away your bonus due to perceived abuse, the only way to get it back is by launching an investigation and them manually crediting it back. Also, you need to file that complaint within the 3 month period, they told me that after that time has passed, you are out of luck. Seems arbitrary and illegal to me as they are clearly not honoring the terms of their offer.

mia

1. You applied in early December?
2. How long did the offer allow to complete the spend for the bonus? I understand you completed it in two weeks, but I am asking how long the terms allowed.
3. How many weeks after completing the spend did the terms state that the bonus would be awarded?

avatarx

Off topic but does Chase have the same system? meaning once you hit the minimum spend and return something, do they remove sign-up bonus like Amex?

Diplomatico

Not yet.

golfingboy

And my neverending saga continues. After being instructed to call back after March 9th (when my 92 days promotional period ends) I gave AMEX another call this morning. Now they are saying, you have to wait 90 days from the time the reversal of the welcome points posted (Jan 24th in my case) for the system to process the bonus. If nothing posts after April 24th call back.

What’s next after April 24th I wonder? 6-8 weeks to process?

Ridiculous.

Happy

I would have filed CFPB long time ago, especially in the case when the min spend was only $1K and the customer net spend reached $5K or more well within the period allowed.

The way I see it is, due to the stupid design of their system to automatically take back the bonus regardless the nature of the return, many customers who are caught by this totally out of the blue when their spend went way above to meet the requirement, many of them would not waste time and energy to deal with AMEX stupidity and just went ahead to file CFPB complaints. You read this on Reddit many times, AMEX quietly put back the bonus shortly after the CFPB filed, without a word heard from them.

Because the Abuse Team has to deal with the mountain of CFPB complaints, that take preceding and have higher priority than dealing with you those who are willing to be pushed around by AMEX, you are being pushed down the totem pole every time more work piling in from the must response with a deadline type of CFPB complaints.

File a CFPB complaint in this nature would not hurt your existing accounts. This is clearly an AMEX abusing its customers via T&Cs that even with straight interpretation, they are plain wrong but would not budge UNTIL you file an official complaint.