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Put a fork in it 5.1.2014: One bonus per personal card per person "lifetime" [USA]

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Old Mar 14, 2014, 10:48 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: beltway
It is essential to read the terms of the specific offer, but in general:

This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had this product.
  • You can only earn one new account bonus for each personal card issued by American Express in the USA. We do not know precisely how far back American Express looks to see if you have previously held the same card, but there is anecdotal evidence that the Customer Service database looks back only seven years. This means that if you cancelled a card in 2007 or earlier, and have not held it since, you will probably qualify for a new account bonus in 2015.
  • Holding a related card does not disqualify earning a new account bonus. Examples: Green, Gold, and Platinum are each separate products. Delta Gold, Platinum and Reserve are each separate products. The Hilton credit card is a different product than Hilton Surpass.
  • Holding a Supplementary Card (authorized user) on someone else's account does not disqualify you from earning a new acount bonus if you open the same card type in your own name.
  • This rule does not apply to business cards. As of mid-February 2016, Amex appears to be adding the same restriction to its business card products.
  • If you receive a targeted offer, online or through the USPS, for a card which you have previously held you may, or may not, actually receive the bonus. Be certain to save a copy of the offer, and to read and save every screen which appears during the application process.
  • Upgrade offers are different from new account offers. You may be offered a bonus to upgrade (for example) a Gold Card to a Platinum Card, and you may be eligible for that bonus even if you previously held a Platinum card. It is still essential to read and save the terms of the offer.

If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer.
  • This language appeared in the Spring of 2013, a year before the once-in-a lifetime policy was announced. The key term is "may", which gives American Express discretion to award or withhold the bonus.
  • To reduce the risk that the automated system will deny a new account bonus, RIGHT click the application link and open the application in a Private or Incognito browser window. American Express will still know that you are a current cardholder, but the system will not flag your application.

Points will be credited to your Membership Rewards account within 6 - 8 weeks after the spend requirement has been reached.
  • In practice it is not possible to know when American Express's system will credit a bonus to your rewards account. It may happen immediately after you meet the target spend, or it may happen when the next statement (or the following statement) is generated, or it may take the full eight weeks.
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Put a fork in it 5.1.2014: One bonus per personal card per person "lifetime" [USA]

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Old Mar 19, 2014, 3:15 pm
  #76  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Originally Posted by sdsearch
Even on cards with high spend requirements?

Let's say I hold an SPG card for a few years, paying only part of the annual fee because I know about going for retention bonuses, and I put very little spend on it. Does that really cost Amex less than if I cancelled and reapplied a year later and spent $5000 (to get the bonus again)???

As a churner, I'm almost always chasing one spend threshold or another, so the alternative to not churning is not putting everyday spending on that card, it's putting card in a drawer while I direct my spend threshold spending to other (and now mostly non-Amex) cards.

See, Amex isn't getting rid of churners, it's getting rid of churning. That's a real difference. Churners don't necessarily churn every card they have, they typically hold some. Amex isn't getting rid of the churners that hold Amex cards, they are only getting rid of the churning of the same cards.
Point 1, I do not understand why they would give you a retention bonus if you have very little spend. Seems foolish to reward customers who are not really customers.

And for an example, say you get an SPG card with 20k in signup points. After 5k in spend, Amex would have to buy about $175 in points (25k x $0.007/point).

They would collect about $175 in processing fees (5k x 0.035/$).

So they have broken even on this cardmember. Until they pay all their other expenses (insurance, mail, customer service, etc). Now they have lost money.

Why they ever did this I cannot understand. At least a customer who pays the annual fee, even without any spend, contributes something to their bottom line.

Churners (and I will admit I may occasionally fall into this category...) are like the people who only shop at the grocery store for the loss leaders only. They cost you money.
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Old Mar 19, 2014, 8:27 pm
  #77  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 8
Does anyone have experience With Delta Gold & Plat signup bonus.

In the past I had the Gold Delta Card. On the portal from my delta account it gives info on signing up for the Delta Plat Card. Bonus is 35k Miles and 100 Statement credit if used to make a delta purchase. In the fine print it says that "Bonus offer is not avalible to applicants that have or have had this product." Does amex consider the Delta Gold and Plat the same "product"?
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Old Mar 19, 2014, 10:15 pm
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by sdsearch
Even on cards with high spend requirements?

Let's say I hold an SPG card for a few years, paying only part of the annual fee because I know about going for retention bonuses, and I put very little spend on it. Does that really cost Amex less than if I cancelled and reapplied a year later and spent $5000 (to get the bonus again)???

As a churner, I'm almost always chasing one spend threshold or another, so the alternative to not churning is not putting everyday spending on that card, it's putting card in a drawer while I direct my spend threshold spending to other (and now mostly non-Amex) cards.

See, Amex isn't getting rid of churners, it's getting rid of churning. That's a real difference. Churners don't necessarily churn every card they have, they typically hold some. Amex isn't getting rid of the churners that hold Amex cards, they are only getting rid of the churning of the same cards.
While it is possible that amex has not eliminated the churners from acquiring their credit cards, it is equally as possible that they have. After all, Amex underwrites the particular card you are applying for and needs to approve you for a particular card. If they see that you have had X Amex cards in Y years and close them after 1 or 2 year(s), they could program their automated approval system to decline these applicants or require these applications to undergo manual underwriting. At this point, Amex underwriters can easily see that you have not been profitable in the past and can spot that you typically open and close cards on a regular basis and thus are not likely to be a profitable or high value customer to them and thus can decline your application for approval. Or as others have speculated, Amex can at its discretion simply decline the signup bonus for unprofitable customers since they have previously held an Amex card thus precluding you from any other signup bonuses.

As such, in either of these scenarios they have not simply eliminated the churning but also the churners which can allow them to focus on their profitable customers which should in theory lead to increased net income assuming the additional revenue generated by these profitable cardmembers is greater then their fixed costs spread over a smaller cardmember base. From reading the message boards this sounds very possible since many churners call up to activate their card, verify the signup bonus they are receiving with a CSR and then call for retention offers and if none are acceptable to the churner the card is then closed. All of these phone calls cost Amex money assuming they need to hire more CSRs to handle the higher call volume generated from their unprofitable customers which results in more leased office space, telephone lines and other fixed costs in the short term. Thus, I don't really think Amex will see decreased net income from eliminating or decreasing the number of churners that hold their card.

In fact, I read several years ago an industry article which stated the signup bonuses were large because the credit card companies were looking to increase their portfolio of prime credit score cardmembers and expected each cardholder to start generating profitability after holding a particular card for 2-3 years. The reason given was that the signup bonus on average takes 2-3 years to recoup in addition to the loss of the annual fee the first year since it is typically waived.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 1:15 am
  #79  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
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In case people haven't noticed, they've already changed their terms before May 1st, probably to prevent last minute churners scrambling to jump on. The deal is dead!

New offer terms for PRG:
"If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had this product."

Platinum:
"If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had a Platinum Card® account enrolled in the Membership Rewards® program."

Platinum for Mercedes-Benz:
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had a Platinum Card® account enrolled in the Membership Rewards® program."

It sounds like for the purposes of sign-up bonuses, both the Platinum and Platinum MB card are considered the same.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 3:38 am
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by turtleisland
In case people haven't noticed, they've already changed their terms before May 1st, probably to prevent last minute churners scrambling to jump on. The deal is dead!

New offer terms for PRG:
"If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had this product."

Platinum:
"If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had a Platinum Card® account enrolled in the Membership Rewards® program."

Platinum for Mercedes-Benz:
"Welcome bonus offer not available to applicants who have or have had a Platinum Card® account enrolled in the Membership Rewards® program."

It sounds like for the purposes of sign-up bonuses, both the Platinum and Platinum MB card are considered the same.
Workaround (for now, presumably irrelevant 5/1): Incognito mode. Just did it (have AmEx BCP, wanted to jump on Plat pre-5/1, confirmed with rep that I'd be getting the 40k bonus after hitting 3k spend). I did have to call to get my new card added to my existing Amex online account though -- it gave me errors when I tried to add it online myself.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 4:19 am
  #81  
 
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Originally Posted by taxicabnumber
Workaround (for now, presumably irrelevant 5/1): Incognito mode. Just did it (have AmEx BCP, wanted to jump on Plat pre-5/1, confirmed with rep that I'd be getting the 40k bonus after hitting 3k spend). I did have to call to get my new card added to my existing Amex online account though -- it gave me errors when I tried to add it online myself.
It's not really a workaround. Anyone applying now is taking a gamble. The new condition clearly states who is not eligible. It states this condition while not logged in (e.g. in incognito mode), and no offer while logged in.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 6:32 am
  #82  
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Originally Posted by rexmundi000
... "Bonus offer is not available to applicants that have or have had this product." Does amex consider the Delta Gold and Plat the same "product"?
I have moved your post into the established thread discussing the new terms. No one has any experience with how American Express will implement this new policy. SkyMiles Gold is not the same product as SkyMiles Platinum, however American Express might reduce the Platinum bonus by the amount of any bonus you received when you applied for the Gold version.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 8:54 am
  #83  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by mia
I have moved your post into the established thread discussing the new terms. No one has any experience with how American Express will implement this new policy. SkyMiles Gold is not the same product as SkyMiles Platinum, however American Express might reduce the Platinum bonus by the amount of any bonus you received when you applied for the Gold version.
Can I call and ask to get a definitive answer. Or is it more of a crap shoot?
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 9:28 am
  #84  
mia
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Originally Posted by rexmundi000
... definitive answer....
I don't have much confidence in the answers given by first line CSR's at any bank. I would spend some time reading this thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...er-thread.html
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 12:36 pm
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Joe1690
In fact, I read several years ago an industry article which stated the signup bonuses were large because the credit card companies were looking to increase their portfolio of prime credit score cardmembers and expected each cardholder to start generating profitability after holding a particular card for 2-3 years. The reason given was that the signup bonus on average takes 2-3 years to recoup in addition to the loss of the annual fee the first year since it is typically waived.
That's stupid on their part. Signup bonuses don't reward you for having the card 2-3 years. If that's they want, they should structure the bonus so that it's big but only if you keep the card a long time. (Sort of like an investment that you have to hold for a while before you can have it paid out.)

I have seen an occasional card offer like this (earn bonus miles for meeting monthly spend minimums for a large number of months) from one or two banks, but to date they're vary rare. Obviuosly, these offers don't tend to be popular with churners, so on FT they're mentioned in passing and not discussed much after that, as long as more "churner-friendly" offers also exist.

Now, of course, there are other ways to create value for customers that entice them to keep the card a long time. Chase is good at this, but no other bank seems to have figured it out. I hold onto my IHG Club and Marriott cards from Chase in large part because they give me a free hotel night certifcate each year I pay the annual fee ($49 and $85 respectively). To me, that's a "net negative" annual fee^, but somehow it obviously works for the bank (presumably because the hotel free night is not reimbursed by the hotel program at cash hotel rate values, but at much lower values). But Amex gives nothing of the sort with its hotel cards (that have annual fees), so I'm much less likely to keep them for years.

That's what more banks should be doing if they want to have people hold annual fee cards for a long time. Figure out something of value to the cardholder to give in exchange for the annual fee that doesn't cost the bank nearly as much as the value the cardholder puts on it.

Amex did finally get it right on the Hilton Surpass card. A year after Citi came out with an annual fee Hilton card (Reserve) that gives HH Gold status (free breakfast & free internet at virtually all properties worldwide) as long as you hold it, Amex finally mimiced that with its Hilton Surpass card. But the SPG card only gives you a paltry "Preferred Plus" semi-status (which you can get other ways too).
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 5:03 pm
  #86  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by sdsearch
That's stupid on their part. Signup bonuses don't reward you for having the card 2-3 years. If that's they want, they should structure the bonus so that it's big but only if you keep the card a long time. (Sort of like an investment that you have to hold for a while before you can have it paid out.)

I have seen an occasional card offer like this (earn bonus miles for meeting monthly spend minimums for a large number of months) from one or two banks, but to date they're vary rare. Obviuosly, these offers don't tend to be popular with churners, so on FT they're mentioned in passing and not discussed much after that, as long as more "churner-friendly" offers also exist.

Now, of course, there are other ways to create value for customers that entice them to keep the card a long time. Chase is good at this, but no other bank seems to have figured it out. I hold onto my IHG Club and Marriott cards from Chase in large part because they give me a free hotel night certifcate each year I pay the annual fee ($49 and $85 respectively). To me, that's a "net negative" annual fee^, but somehow it obviously works for the bank (presumably because the hotel free night is not reimbursed by the hotel program at cash hotel rate values, but at much lower values). But Amex gives nothing of the sort with its hotel cards (that have annual fees), so I'm much less likely to keep them for years.

That's what more banks should be doing if they want to have people hold annual fee cards for a long time. Figure out something of value to the cardholder to give in exchange for the annual fee that doesn't cost the bank nearly as much as the value the cardholder puts on it.

Amex did finally get it right on the Hilton Surpass card. A year after Citi came out with an annual fee Hilton card (Reserve) that gives HH Gold status (free breakfast & free internet at virtually all properties worldwide) as long as you hold it, Amex finally mimiced that with its Hilton Surpass card. But the SPG card only gives you a paltry "Preferred Plus" semi-status (which you can get other ways too).
Revolving debt is increasing, which means more people are spending on their credit cards. Since the crash back in 08, banks have been trying to get people to spend on their cards to generate more revenue. They eventually started offering very generous signup bonuses with minimal spend in good faith that these people will continue to use their cards.

Unfortunately, as rewards programs became more sophisticated, so too did consumers who tried to game the system, and churning became a growing practice. More people started to blog about churning, and teach others tips and tricks on how to get their free lunch and eat it too. It's a relatively new phenomena and to say that Amex was stupid to offer such generous bonuses is all hindsight because at the time, the data points probably did not give enough insight into how people would ultimately game the system. At the time, it was a business model worth trying as they wanted to attract more customers. And based on Amex's growth, it worked.

Fast forward to today, and trial period is over. They've evaluated their plans, and decided they no longer want to go down that path. Perhaps the data points from this go-around show that they could live without allowing people to churn their cards. Perhaps this was already a planned long ago, where they would stop churning once they hit a certain level. They're obviously growing and making a lot more money over the years on the back of new products, so while you might be right as to how to keep consumers happy (at the very least yourself happy), they still know how to run a bank and create profitable products.

FWIW... I think Amex is going the way of Verizon. Not the best bang for buck, but they will ultimately provide some of the better products and services at a premium.
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Old Mar 20, 2014, 7:54 pm
  #87  
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Originally Posted by linuxmachine
Unfortunately, as rewards programs became more sophisticated, so too did consumers who tried to game the system, and churning became a growing practice. More people started to blog about churning, and teach others tips and tricks on how to get their free lunch and eat it too. It's a relatively new phenomena and to say that Amex was stupid to offer such generous bonuses is all hindsight because at the time, the data points probably did not give enough insight into how people would ultimately game the system. At the time, it was a business model worth trying as they wanted to attract more customers. And based on Amex's growth, it worked.
Actually, no, it's perhaps more that it's a relatively newly publicized and widespread phenomena. But churning mania itself is not all that new.

There was oodles of churning going on in the mid-2000s when Citi let you apply for 2 AA cards at a time, gave 25k bonus miles for each (with very low spend requirements by today's standards), every 65 days, and on top of that all those miles back then counted toward (the Gold and Platinum levels of) AA lifetime elite status! So AA FTers were chruning those like crazy!

It's just that (by that time) AA was the only airline which still counted all miles from all sources toward lifetime elite status (that finally ended in 2011), and Citi was the only bank that had AA cards, and it so happened that Citi was the most churning-friendly bank (and to some degree, is still one of the friendlier ones, since it still lets you churn the 50k Hilton HHonors Visa every 35 days or so if you really want).

So those who weren't AA members interested in ilfetime status may not have been all that aware of it, and people outside of FT may not have been that aware of it, given the scarcity of blogs back then. But in that one sphere, it was going on to a degree that hasn't been matched for any one miles/points program in recent years. It's only the sum of all churning, in recent years, which has topped the AA Citi churning of the mid 2000s.
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 3:37 pm
  #88  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,059
Has this already started??? I was looking for reapply for Delta Gold Skymiles and I got this on the application page!

If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had this product.
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 4:24 pm
  #89  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NB, Canada
Programs: Fairmont, Amex MR, Marriott
Posts: 2,531
Originally Posted by Rommie2k6
Has this already started??? I was looking for reapply for Delta Gold Skymiles and I got this on the application page!

If we identify you as currently having an American Express® Card account, you may not be eligible for this welcome bonus offer. This offer is also not available to applicants who have or have had this product.
See post 79.

Looks like it is started.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 6:40 pm
  #90  
 
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Originally Posted by levander
What bet they don't update their web site so that when you apply you're told you were accepted, but can't get the promotion.

An application for BCP had the wording that I "may not be eligible" for the promotion. So I called and asked before I applied for the card, printed out a PDF of the approval message saying I got the card and the bonus, and called after applying and was again told I got the promo. So then I hit the minimum spend and called again and they were like, "oh, oh, wait a minute!"

Four calls and 3 months later, someone from there "executive customer service dept" called and was very apologetic . She must have apologized twenty damn times despite my telling her I really didn't care if she was personally sorry, I just wanted her to fix it.

She point blank told me AMEX wouldn't check the call logs and the printout of my acceptance web page was irrelevant. I needed to have printed out the application page. So basically AMEX isn't responsible for what they tell you on the phone or what their web site tells you. The executive customer service lady point blank said, "yeah, sometimes the people answering the phone get it wrong.., I'm so sorry!"

The days of AMEX being the peace of mind bank are over. AMEX is just riding on their reputation of the past. If you're a card holder because of the benefits, fine. Just don't expect them to have your back if something goes hay wire. It might work out for you, but in my experience it works out less than it does with other banks.

Chase is kicking their butt and AMEX isn't responding. Just letting Chase slowly eat into their profits margin. Probably have to be some kind of catastrophe earnings-wise before AMEX revamps.

Their new Everyday cards look like an effort to respond, but their criteria of having to use their Preferred card 30 times in a month is pure paranoia. I do some modest MS and don't use my credit card 30 times a month. I could get the lower Everyday card and without doing a bunch of trivial charges hit their 20 / month transaction limit. But then I'd have to completely stop using any card besides my AMEX Everyday. I'd be fine using 2 cards, like one for restaurants and entertainment and one for groceries, drugstores, gas... But 1 card is just laziness.

It's like AMEX is trying to figure out how to reward loyalty rather than just grab lazy people who sign up for a big bonus and hope they never bother to switch cards again. But this transaction limit, it's like they're not able to do that without being paranoid schizophrenic about the churners. That transaction limit, they're basically encouraging regular folk to make spurious charges. And if you're making spurious charges anyway... hey, why not make them gift cards at the grocery store??!
They can try to weasel out of it, but in your case there's clearly a contract, and they are clearly in breach of it (though note IANAL). Small claims court is the way to go.
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