TATL w/onward cheaper than just TATL?
May 10, 2024, 5:26 pm
#31
formerly wchinchen
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Honolulu
Programs: AA CK, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,412
My example was more on a level of moral deficiency than a straight example. It’s not on the level of theft by gunpoint, but more scheming to one’s benefit while knowing its wrong. Agree or not… that is out of my control.
Your example of the combo meal is flawed as in the airline example, the order at which you “eat” is extremely relevant. The example does not hold water. For it to be relevant, you would need for them to serve you in a specific order, and you could only skip the dessert. So; if you skip the burger, you don’t get the fries and the sundae.
When you buy a flight, you are not buying induvial flights in a package, you are buying a trip from point AAA to point XXX regardless of the intermediate segments.
Here is the best counter example example I can think of: Say you buy JFK-LHR-BRU with the intention of dropping the last segment. A week later, the airline cancels the JFK-LHR segment and offers JFK-MAD-BRU. Can you then force them to route you the transition through LHR? Their obligation is to fly you from JFK-BRU not to route you through LHR.
And yes, I know most people on FT think airlines deserve to get screwed because “they try and screw passengers.” I don’t adhere to that philosophy.
Your example of the combo meal is flawed as in the airline example, the order at which you “eat” is extremely relevant. The example does not hold water. For it to be relevant, you would need for them to serve you in a specific order, and you could only skip the dessert. So; if you skip the burger, you don’t get the fries and the sundae.
When you buy a flight, you are not buying induvial flights in a package, you are buying a trip from point AAA to point XXX regardless of the intermediate segments.
Here is the best counter example example I can think of: Say you buy JFK-LHR-BRU with the intention of dropping the last segment. A week later, the airline cancels the JFK-LHR segment and offers JFK-MAD-BRU. Can you then force them to route you the transition through LHR? Their obligation is to fly you from JFK-BRU not to route you through LHR.
And yes, I know most people on FT think airlines deserve to get screwed because “they try and screw passengers.” I don’t adhere to that philosophy.
Fries: 5 bucks. Burger and Fries: 3 bucks. You order the burger and fries since it's cheaper as you only want the fries anyways. They serve you fries first, and then you leave because you don't want the burger = skiplag. Restaurants won't care.
In the spirit of your example, the restaurant ran out of fries, when you ordered the burger/fries combo; and said they can substitute a milk shake. But you ordered that combo at a cheaper price especially for the fries, so do you take the milkshake or leave? So you said no thank you or come back another day since you don't want the burger or milkshake anyway. Restaurant apologizes for their oversight and refunds you.
I don't think any sane person will argue with the restaurant to give them fries when they are out of fries or not able to make fries. Does it really change the argument? Does the order matter? Not all, since you are discarding the last dish/flight anyways.
Going back to your example: No, the flyer can't force the airlines to offer something they can't do, and airlines can't force passengers not take a flight they don't want to take. The flyer purchased JFK-LHR-BRU, and expects this product, not JFK-MAD-BRU, or any other reiterations. The passenger can respectfully decline the change in his/her trip if he just wanted to go to LHR in the first place.
I never skipped lag in my entire life, but I don't judge people who skip lag either. I just find it fascinating someone made money off skip lagging by making an industry to sell skip lag flights and is monetizing this inefficiency in the first place. Airlines just need to make ticket pricing more logical to prevent this.
You don't need any degree to understand that when you sell 5 cows at 500 bucks and then proceed to sell 5 cows and 2 sheep at 400 bucks, guess what people are going to do, even when they don't need the sheeps?
May 10, 2024, 5:27 pm
#32
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,727
Sure, let's talk about order of receiving said products purchased:
Fries: 5 bucks. Burger and Fries: 3 bucks. You order the burger and fries since it's cheaper as you only want the fries anyways. They serve you fries first, and then you leave because you don't want the burger = skiplag. Restaurants won't care.
In the spirit of your example, the restaurant ran out of fries, when you ordered the burger/fries combo; and said they can substitute a milk shake. But you ordered that combo at a cheaper price especially for the fries, so do you take the milkshake or leave? So you said no thank you or come back another day since you don't want the burger or milkshake anyway.
I don't think any sane person will argue with the restaurant to give them fries when they are out of fries or not able to make fries. Does it really change the argument? Does the order matter? Not all, since you are discarding the last dish/flight anyways.
Going back to your example: No, the flyer can't force the airlines to offer something they can't do, and airlines can't force passengers not take a flight they don't want to take. The flyer purchased JFK-LHR-BRU, and expects this product, not JFK-MAD-BRU, or any other reiterations. The passenger can respectfully decline the change in his/her trip if he just wanted to go to LHR in the first place.
I never skipped lag in my entire life, but I don't judge people who skip lag either. I just find it fascinating someone made money off skip lagging by making an industry to sell skip lag flights and is monetizing this inefficiency in the first place. Airlines just need to make ticket pricing more logical to prevent this.
You don't need any degree to understand that when you sell 5 cows at 500 bucks and then proceed to sell 5 cows and 2 sheep at 400 bucks, guess what people are going to do, even when they don't need the sheeps?
Fries: 5 bucks. Burger and Fries: 3 bucks. You order the burger and fries since it's cheaper as you only want the fries anyways. They serve you fries first, and then you leave because you don't want the burger = skiplag. Restaurants won't care.
In the spirit of your example, the restaurant ran out of fries, when you ordered the burger/fries combo; and said they can substitute a milk shake. But you ordered that combo at a cheaper price especially for the fries, so do you take the milkshake or leave? So you said no thank you or come back another day since you don't want the burger or milkshake anyway.
I don't think any sane person will argue with the restaurant to give them fries when they are out of fries or not able to make fries. Does it really change the argument? Does the order matter? Not all, since you are discarding the last dish/flight anyways.
Going back to your example: No, the flyer can't force the airlines to offer something they can't do, and airlines can't force passengers not take a flight they don't want to take. The flyer purchased JFK-LHR-BRU, and expects this product, not JFK-MAD-BRU, or any other reiterations. The passenger can respectfully decline the change in his/her trip if he just wanted to go to LHR in the first place.
I never skipped lag in my entire life, but I don't judge people who skip lag either. I just find it fascinating someone made money off skip lagging by making an industry to sell skip lag flights and is monetizing this inefficiency in the first place. Airlines just need to make ticket pricing more logical to prevent this.
You don't need any degree to understand that when you sell 5 cows at 500 bucks and then proceed to sell 5 cows and 2 sheep at 400 bucks, guess what people are going to do, even when they don't need the sheeps?
Character is what you do when no one is looking.
Goodnight all.
May 10, 2024, 6:01 pm
#33
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: AADULtArer
Posts: 5,863
Sure, let's talk about order of receiving said products purchased:
Fries: 5 bucks. Burger and Fries: 3 bucks. You order the burger and fries since it's cheaper as you only want the fries anyways. They serve you fries first, and then you leave because you don't want the burger = skiplag. Restaurants won't care.
In the spirit of your example, the restaurant ran out of fries, when you ordered the burger/fries combo; and said they can substitute a milk shake. But you ordered that combo at a cheaper price especially for the fries, so do you take the milkshake or leave? So you said no thank you or come back another day since you don't want the burger or milkshake anyway. Restaurant apologizes for their oversight and refunds you.
I don't think any sane person will argue with the restaurant to give them fries when they are out of fries or not able to make fries. Does it really change the argument? Does the order matter? Not all, since you are discarding the last dish/flight anyways.
Going back to your example: No, the flyer can't force the airlines to offer something they can't do, and airlines can't force passengers not take a flight they don't want to take. The flyer purchased JFK-LHR-BRU, and expects this product, not JFK-MAD-BRU, or any other reiterations. The passenger can respectfully decline the change in his/her trip if he just wanted to go to LHR in the first place.
I never skipped lag in my entire life, but I don't judge people who skip lag either. I just find it fascinating someone made money off skip lagging by making an industry to sell skip lag flights and is monetizing this inefficiency in the first place. Airlines just need to make ticket pricing more logical to prevent this.
You don't need any degree to understand that when you sell 5 cows at 500 bucks and then proceed to sell 5 cows and 2 sheep at 400 bucks, guess what people are going to do, even when they don't need the sheeps?
Fries: 5 bucks. Burger and Fries: 3 bucks. You order the burger and fries since it's cheaper as you only want the fries anyways. They serve you fries first, and then you leave because you don't want the burger = skiplag. Restaurants won't care.
In the spirit of your example, the restaurant ran out of fries, when you ordered the burger/fries combo; and said they can substitute a milk shake. But you ordered that combo at a cheaper price especially for the fries, so do you take the milkshake or leave? So you said no thank you or come back another day since you don't want the burger or milkshake anyway. Restaurant apologizes for their oversight and refunds you.
I don't think any sane person will argue with the restaurant to give them fries when they are out of fries or not able to make fries. Does it really change the argument? Does the order matter? Not all, since you are discarding the last dish/flight anyways.
Going back to your example: No, the flyer can't force the airlines to offer something they can't do, and airlines can't force passengers not take a flight they don't want to take. The flyer purchased JFK-LHR-BRU, and expects this product, not JFK-MAD-BRU, or any other reiterations. The passenger can respectfully decline the change in his/her trip if he just wanted to go to LHR in the first place.
I never skipped lag in my entire life, but I don't judge people who skip lag either. I just find it fascinating someone made money off skip lagging by making an industry to sell skip lag flights and is monetizing this inefficiency in the first place. Airlines just need to make ticket pricing more logical to prevent this.
You don't need any degree to understand that when you sell 5 cows at 500 bucks and then proceed to sell 5 cows and 2 sheep at 400 bucks, guess what people are going to do, even when they don't need the sheeps?
May 10, 2024, 6:11 pm
#34
formerly wchinchen
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Honolulu
Programs: AA CK, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,412
So please enlighten us about revenue management of why AAA-BBB is more expensive than AAA-BBB-CCC.
May 10, 2024, 6:28 pm
#35
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,809
Because the airline isn't pricing A-B-C but has a fare for A-C ; it may be that there is a routing for A-C via B , but it isn't the sum of fares
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
May 10, 2024, 7:09 pm
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: AA EXP, National EE
Posts: 107
ORD-LHR-PRG / AA-BA / 57.5K / ~$22 taxes & fees
PRG-LHR-ORD / BA-AA / 57.5K / ~$89 taxes & fees
May 10, 2024, 7:10 pm
#37
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 483
Because the airline isn't pricing A-B-C but has a fare for A-C ; it may be that there is a routing for A-C via B , but it isn't the sum of fares
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
Unfortunately for the airlines, they chose a revenue model where they belive less is more in many ocasions. They attempt to enforce this by these sorts of T&Cs. Passengers are free to exploit their inefffiencent revenue model. Airlines can attempt to enforce their policies if they so desire, though the legality of the airline T&Cs in terms of collecting additional revenue really hasn't been adjudicated in US coursts. In Spain, there was a decision that prohibits the airlines from taking any action against a passanger who does this. Luftansa chose to give up the fight in a German court when requested to justify the expenses they were trying to collect.
There is no moral or ehtical question here. Its simply business. In all cases the airline is getting compensated for their services they provided. The passenger is choosing not to consume it all. If that violates a T&C, so be it.
May 10, 2024, 7:26 pm
#38
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not here; there!
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold
Posts: 29,979
May 10, 2024, 7:29 pm
#39
formerly wchinchen
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Honolulu
Programs: AA CK, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,412
Because the airline isn't pricing A-B-C but has a fare for A-C ; it may be that there is a routing for A-C via B , but it isn't the sum of fares
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
There are lots of reasons why fares to different locations are different
If an airline offers a nonstop service from A-B whilst other carriers require a connection or a direct flight that isn't non stop, it can command a premium over other carriers
It is clear in AA's T&Cs that hidden city ticketing is prohibited regardless of how people try to justify it
So I did abit of research of hidden city ticketing...If anyone is interested, here are good research articles Hidden City Ticketing Research 2023 Revenue Management and HCT
You are correct, HCT is used mainly for airlines that cannot compete with airlines with direct flights (A-C), and is mainly utilized mainly by hub and spoke reliant airlines who need to do (A-B-C) to compete with the non stop.
However, at the end of the day, the use of HCT is due to the Airline's own free market forces and the ability or inability to compete with the other airlines. Airlines can easily stop HCT by pricing effectively or offer a better products to compete with the non stop carriers, but they do not elect to do so based on market forces.
The European Union already allows HCT to be done, and there are no significant negative consequences to airlines as so feared and espoused by US carriers; so the argument that somehow revenue management allows HCT in order to benefit the consumers is quite frankly, not founded. It's only for the benefit of the airlines trying to reap revenue from the consumer who would have taken the direct flight on a competitor.
May 10, 2024, 7:32 pm
#40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PHX
Programs: UA *Alliance
Posts: 5,732
For all those arguing that skip lagging is immoral and not in good character, how about airlines charging more for AAA-BBB depending on time of day? Maybe that early morning flight is cheaper compared to a later flight, or vice versa. So when someone who picks a prime time flight at a higher fare, and their flight is delayed to what would have been a cheaper option originally, should the airline automatically figure out the fare difference and refund it?
May 10, 2024, 8:18 pm
#41
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca., USA
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat; Bonvoy Titanium Lifetime Elite;Hyatt Globalist; HHonors Diamond; United Silver
Posts: 8,452
The answer is AA hoses you if the can. Found DCA -TLH for 9k in J on an E175 booked through AS.
23.5 if booked on AA for same flight.
23.5 if booked on AA for same flight.
May 10, 2024, 8:36 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: Marriott Ambassador, AA ExecPlat, Amtrak Select Exec, former WN apologist
Posts: 1,484
I don't know what the answer is and quite frankly never realized the airline industry was deregulated in the first place. Maybe we can open an OMNI thread and discuss this. Was regulation or deregulation better for airlines and the consolidation of airlines of what we know now?
Maybe folks with historical background can chime in.
Maybe folks with historical background can chime in.
Although arguably at the same time it has contributed to the race to the bottom on service. That could be its own thread as well.