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-   -   Strange denial of boarding on MAN-PHL (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1963018-strange-denial-boarding-man-phl.html)

eqeqeqx Mar 29, 19 7:29 am


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 30942412)
The BP does not say T-10 for presentation. It states that doors close at T-10.

What would "doors close"-time mean, if not the cut-off time for boarding? Is there any other reason the average passenger would be interested in knowing what time the doors close?

Would anyone holding an already paid for bus ticket with departure time set for 10:05 be ok with the non-full bus leaving 09:35? Obviously AA knew the passenger, having already checked in, was still missing. Perhaps they could even see what time he entered airside, depending on the computer system and the airport. AA denying him boarding 20 minutes before the "doors close" time printed on his ticket is ridiculous.

This is what AA says (https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...-process.jsp):
"Most flights start boarding 30 - 50 minutes before scheduled departure, but the exact time depends on your destination and plane. If you get to the gate less than 10 minutes before departure, the doors will be closed and you’ll be unable to board."

An idiot may of course argue that the above text does not say that if you arrive earlier than T-10, you will be able to board. That it only says what happens if you arrive later than T-10, but I sure hope the OP's friend complains, and then complains again via one of the "we complain for you" airline services if his own complain is not handled properly by AA.

JonNYC Mar 29, 19 7:34 am


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 30942208)
There seem to be other reports of AA voiding tickets for people who arrive late, but before scheduled departure. In that window, it seems that they ought to be charged a change fee and fare difference and then rebooked. Once the flight has departed, the ticket would be properly voided.

No, I don't believe that is correct.

I'm led to believe that AA might have been well within their rights to depart as early as they did but then had the obligation to accommodate the off-loaded passenger in the OP's description (assuming all is as presented) without any out-of-pocket cost on a later flight.

moondog Mar 29, 19 7:41 am


Originally Posted by dflannagin (Post 30942506)
I think we have a pretty solid case against their "YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT T-30"

If the BP says T-30, sure, but if it says T-10, that is the rule.

SpinOn2 Mar 29, 19 7:54 am

Used to work gate for AA, we were only allowed to close the flight earlier than 10 minutes if ALL passengers were accounted for. The only reason we could deny a pax on the flight is if they came late and their seat was needed for someone else. On that case, 30 min for international, 15 minutes for domestic. We definitely had times were someone would come up to the gate to find their seat had been given away, and they'd use the "It says door closes 10 min prior!" Sure does, but your seat can be given away earlier per CoC.

So I'd say IF AA really didn't just take his seat away and just decided to close the door earlier than D10, then your friend has a case. Might be hard for him to prove though honestly.

craz Mar 29, 19 8:08 am


Originally Posted by eqeqeqx (Post 30942542)
What would "doors close"-time mean, if not the cut-off time for boarding? Is there any other reason the average passenger would be interested in knowing what time the doors close?

Would anyone holding an already paid for bus ticket with departure time set for 10:05 be ok with the non-full bus leaving 09:35? Obviously AA knew the passenger, having already checked in, was still missing. Perhaps they could even see what time he entered airside, depending on the computer system and the airport. AA denying him boarding 20 minutes before the "doors close" time printed on his ticket is ridiculous.

This is what AA says (https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...-process.jsp):
"Most flights start boarding 30 - 50 minutes before scheduled departure, but the exact time depends on your destination and plane. If you get to the gate less than 10 minutes before departure, the doors will be closed and you’ll be unable to board."

An idiot may of course argue that the above text does not say that if you arrive earlier than T-10, you will be able to board. That it only says what happens if you arrive later than T-10, but I sure hope the OP's friend complains, and then complains again via one of the "we complain for you" airline services if his own complain is not handled properly by AA.

"Doors close" means to me that @ T -10 ether the door to the aircraft is closed , it tells me by T-10 I need to have already boarded the flight. That said that doesnt mean the flight cant leave early and IMHO it shouldnt unless all tkted passengers have boarded. If it the flight is closed to anyone holding a tkt/B before T-10 its the carriers responsibility to get me to my destination and yes even on another carrier if it will get me there before that carriers next flight

So IMO if our OP got to the gate and normally would have been able to get on before T-10 had the door not been closed then AA needs to step up and own the error

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 8:16 am


Originally Posted by SpinOn2 (Post 30942627)
Used to work gate for AA, we were only allowed to close the flight earlier than 10 minutes if ALL passengers were accounted for. The only reason we could deny a pax on the flight is if they came late and their seat was needed for someone else. On that case, 30 min for international, 15 minutes for domestic. We definitely had times were someone would come up to the gate to find their seat had been given away, and they'd use the "It says door closes 10 min prior!" Sure does, but your seat can be given away earlier per CoC.

So I'd say IF AA really didn't just take his seat away and just decided to close the door earlier than D10, then your friend has a case. Might be hard for him to prove though honestly.

It wont be difficult to prove in UK County Court, burden of proof is on the airline. I still think in your example he deserves to be compensated since his ticket gave him certain limitations and he was fully within them. If AA was really trying to enforce this rule, why would they choose to put a then seemingly arbitrary "doors close 10 minutes prior" heading on the boarding pass? Why not put "gate closes 30 minutes prior to departure"

Article 15 in EC261/2004 deals with deceptive terms and voids them if it increases the likelihood of denied boarding.

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 8:32 am

1 Attachment(s)
I'm sorry, I keep running into post limitations, but here is a link to his BP (i cant post images yet!)(or links so delete the spaces...)

imgur . com / a / 4Pq22lX

ijgordon Mar 29, 19 8:32 am


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 30942557)
I'm led to believe that AA might have been well within their rights to depart as early as they did but then had the obligation to accommodate the off-loaded passenger in the OP's description (assuming all is as presented) without any out-of-pocket cost on a later flight.

Surely that would also then trigger EC 261 compensation then too, right, if the passenger is delayed by more than the specified time based on flight distance? Obviously harder to make a US-mandated IDB claim if the flight wasn't oversold, but EC 261 would be more straightforward I would think.

iadisgreat Mar 29, 19 8:39 am


Originally Posted by ddflanagin (Post 30942688)
It wont be difficult to prove in UK County Court, burden of proof is on the airline. I still think in your example he deserves to be compensated since his ticket gave him certain limitations and he was fully within them. If AA was really trying to enforce this rule, why would they choose to put a then seemingly arbitrary "doors close 10 minutes prior" heading on the boarding pass? Why not put "gate closes 30 minutes prior to departure"

Article 15 in EC261/2004 deals with deceptive terms and voids them if it increases the likelihood of denied boarding.

I would agree, the actual passenger can make a claim against AA saying they were there at >=T-30. AA would then have the burden of proof to show that they offloaded his seat at <T-30 (which is of course logged to the second) and not earlier. Should be very easy to prove either way - though I imagine there's a very low probability that AA would actually let it get that far.

​​​

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 8:50 am

Response after final letter:


Thank you for your recent correspondence.

I have reviewed your client's case and the information that you have provided. I realize that you are not happy with our response; however, it's our final decision as check in times have been established to help facilitate customer comfort as well as timely arrival and departures. Despite the circumstances, our agents do not have the ability to override the check-in systems. Therefore, since Mr. ****** didn't arrive at the gate prior to the cut-off time, we must respectfully decline your request for compensation and adjustments.

When considering matters regarding EU regulations, we conduct a fair and unbiased assessment. Generally, we are successful in resolving controversial situations to everyone's satisfaction. Although we have given all aspects of your claim every possible consideration, we are unwilling to resolve it as you have suggested.
Why are they saying check-in times AND cut-off times in the same explanation?

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 8:53 am

Here is our second reply:


Thank you for your recent correspondence.

I have reviewed your client's case and the information that you have provided. I realize that you are not happy with our response; however, it's our final decision as check in times have been established to help facilitate customer comfort as well as timely arrival and departures. Despite the circumstances, our agents do not have the ability to override the check-in systems. Therefore, since Mr. M didn't arrive at the gate prior to the cut-off time, we must respectfully decline your request for compensation and adjustments.

When considering matters regarding EU regulations, we conduct a fair and unbiased assessment. Generally, we are successful in resolving controversial situations to everyone's satisfaction. Although we have given all aspects of your claim every possible consideration, we are unwilling to resolve it as you have suggested.

Lastly, we know and understand that there are many components to air travel; still, our basic product is transportation. While some elements of a particular flight may be unsatisfactory, we do not routinely provide compensation when transportation is provided. It would be an exceptional situation in any business to give a refund when the product is used.
They do enjoy dancing around the topic...

GRALISTAIR Mar 29, 19 9:21 am

I used to get that flight regularly. At one time it was US735.

MSPeconomist Mar 29, 19 9:26 am


Originally Posted by fotographer (Post 30941857)
OP, dont understand why your friend would leave it so late to get the gate, especially for an international flight.
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight

Yes, but so what? If the OP's written documentation says ten minutes, then that's the rule that applies in this case.

SAN_Finn Mar 29, 19 9:28 am

From aacargo

Depart
Manchester
MAN
March 25, 2019
Scheduled Time: 10:05 AM
Estimated Time: 09:43 AM
Gate Departure Time: 09:43 AM
Take Off Time: 10:04 AM

In my opinion there is nothing else to prove, they left the gate more than 10 minutes early so if anybody was left behind AA is at fault. Landed more than half hour early, simply very bad decision imho to leave a passenger behind unless their was some strange curfew that demanded early departure.

Betterthanyou Mar 29, 19 9:37 am

INAL, but a BP is not a contract and not a guarantee. The contract is the COC you agree to when you purchase the ticket, so arguing about what the BP says may not hold as strongly as one may think.


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