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-   -   Strange denial of boarding on MAN-PHL (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1963018-strange-denial-boarding-man-phl.html)

moondog Mar 28, 19 10:01 pm


Originally Posted by dflanagin (Post 30941480)


voided ticket, charged $303 for rebooking and offered nothing. Ive searched the international CoC and the only mention of boarding is here:

HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE.

Unlike most FTers, I always try to board at the last possible minute because I always check my bag, and I prefer waiting in the terminal, as opposed to inside the metal tube. I do, however, show up at the gate area at T-30, and make my presence (and intentions) known to the GAs.

The bottom line is that if the BP says "10 minutes", that is pretty much gospel. Since your friend met this requirement, I believe he has a solid case for IDB compensation.

gitismatt Mar 28, 19 10:23 pm


Originally Posted by Gig103 (Post 30941374)
Unfortunately, AA habitually starts boarding super early. I've arrived at "Boarding time" and found entire flights boarded once (HNL) and up to group 7 of 9 another time (PVG).

Here's a thread about the topic:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...stupidity.html

this happened to me on one of the few AA flights I took last year. super surprising to me that in PHL of all places, the boarding was hyper-efficient

Dave Noble Mar 28, 19 10:27 pm

Given the conditions of carriage do state 10 minutes and the passenger was there > 10 minutes before departure , I cannot see how the passengers are not entitled to protection under EC261

Even, as mentioned, the 30 minutes reference only states that seat assignments may be lost

I would be putting a claim in for any costs incurred plus the EUR600 compensation per person

fotographer Mar 29, 19 1:42 am

OP, dont understand why your friend would leave it so late to get the gate, especially for an international flight.
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight

xenole Mar 29, 19 1:44 am

Depends on what doors they're referring to.

From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.

The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)

It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).

I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.

I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.

Dave Noble Mar 29, 19 1:59 am

It doesn't really matter how Ryanair works. What matters is the CoC of the airline that the passenger is flying on. It does seem documented that 10 minutes is the latest time of acceptance both in conditions and on the boarding pass. It also seems that the passengers complied with this requirement


Originally Posted by fotographer (Post 30941857)
OP, dont understand why your friend would leave it so late to get the gate, especially for an international flight.
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight

Then again, who wants to sit on an aeroplane longer than necessary? the passengers didn't miss the flight, they seem to have complied with the airline's requirements

eqeqeqx Mar 29, 19 2:41 am

For other AA-idiocy, see this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2c980866ed08

Good luck to the OP's friend and hope he gets duly compensated.

no2chem Mar 29, 19 3:19 am

Wow. I started the D0 stupidity thread, but this is completely and utterly ridiculous. I'm not even sure what AA's motive here is other than to annoy customers, nobody cares if the flight takes off 22 minutes early.

​​​​​​I hope you get some response from AA and post back. That they voided the ticket was completely unacceptable, but oddly, I'd expect outstations, particularly in the UK to be sticklers for "rules". With AAs toxic culture of making up rules, it can be a ... bad combination resulting in situations like this.

And to all the people who say "I'd never be at the gate that late". Well good for you. But this isn't about you, some people have better things to do with their time and expect the airline to abide by their posted rules and CoC.
​​​​​

Often1 Mar 29, 19 5:36 am


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 30941519)
This was AA735 on March 25th, to confirm?

Personally, I'm not sure that that sounds right that that ticket should have been voided with the presented facts.

There seem to be other reports of AA voiding tickets for people who arrive late, but before scheduled departure. In that window, it seems that they ought to be charged a change fee and fare difference and then rebooked. Once the flight has departed, the ticket would be properly voided.

It may be that the change fee for an international ticket + fare difference exceeds the cost of a new ticket, so the new ticket may make sense. But, that ought to be explained to the passenger.

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 6:33 am


Originally Posted by xenole (Post 30941860)
Depends on what doors they're referring to.

From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.

The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)

It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).

I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.

I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.

Thats interesting, they can see when he scanned through security? We would be in luck here, as he was through security by 8am (photo evidenced to me). The fact remains; the '30 minute cut off' time only refers to seat reassignment, and the AA International general rules only have one stipulation regarding boarding,

Rule 0087 - Denied Boarding - Article C(2)(D): ALL OTHER PASSENGERS ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED BASIS. HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE


If you do a search function for "gate" or "boarding" in that document, this is the only result that makes a rule about boarding time. I just don't see how they are going to argue their way out of this, regardless if "T-30" means something to well traveled folks. This was my friends first international return flight also, so it's not like he even understood the concept of T-30

moondog Mar 29, 19 6:49 am


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 30942208)
There seem to be other reports of AA voiding tickets for people who arrive late, but before scheduled departure. In that window, it seems that they ought to be charged a change fee and fare difference and then rebooked. Once the flight has departed, the ticket would be properly voided.

It may be that the change fee for an international ticket + fare difference exceeds the cost of a new ticket, so the new ticket may make sense. But, that ought to be explained to the passenger.

If the BP says t-10, and you present yourself at the gate before t-10, you are not late.

Often1 Mar 29, 19 6:52 am


Originally Posted by moondog (Post 30942403)
If the BP says t-10, and you present yourself at the gate before t-10, you are not late.

The BP does not say T-10 for presentation. It states that doors close at T-10.

Whether the passenger was late is a factual question. Because OP was not the passenger, that won't be resolveable here. OP says his friend says T-34, which would have been timely. According to OP, AA says T-29. Whether AA said that to the friend or to OP is unclear.

dflanagin Mar 29, 19 7:17 am


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 30942412)
The BP does not say T-10 for presentation. It states that doors close at T-10.

Whether the passenger was late is a factual question. Because OP was not the passenger, that won't be resolveable here. OP says his friend says T-34, which would have been timely. According to OP, AA says T-29. Whether AA said that to the friend or to OP is unclear.

Again, this T-30 cutoff is not in any agreement. Sure, AA says they can bump him and fill the seats, but it doesn't say "we will not wait for passengers after this point". In EU law, burden of proof is on AA, so they're going to have to prove he was late, that his seat was reassigned, which resulted in the flight taking off full. Sure, they could argue that they cancelled his reservation instead of reassigning his seat and the flight did not leave full, but that means the wording in the CoC isn't correct, and they broke a contract with my friend. EU261/2004 is all about protecting the passenger; NOT the airline.

My evidence presented as: His airport check-in time, his security scan time, his boarding pass' t-10 warning, the AA COC wording of "reassign", the AA COC wording of "doors close 10 minutes prior", the 22 minute early departure, and finally the AA International Rules for Denied Boarding, AA Rule 0087 (C)(2)(D):
  • (D)ALL OTHER PASSENGERS ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED BASIS. HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE.
I think we have a pretty solid case against their "YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT T-30"

jliehr Mar 29, 19 7:24 am

Another link

https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...ng-process.jsp

When and how we board

Most flights start boarding 30 - 50 minutes before scheduled departure, but the exact time depends on your destination and plane. If you get to the gate less than 10 minutes before departure, the doors will be closed and you’ll be unable to board.


Pascal Liu Mar 29, 19 7:28 am

We know about the T-30 rule simply because we fly AA frequently or visit Flyertalk regularly. Bear in mind not every members of public are like us, if T-10 is stated on the boarding pass then T-10 is the cutoff time for most.


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