Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
Mar 18, 2019, 6:27 pm
#451
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I would hope that professional pilots working for major carriers would refuse to fly aircraft types on which they had received insufficient information and especially training. Before the Lion Air crash, there apparently hadn't been an acknowledgment from Boeing that some systems in the MAX 8 were very different, but afterward I would have expected more questions than have been reported, when they could reasonably have first suspected that some specialized training was needed. OTOH, I understand that refusal to fly an aircraft, even if there are serious maintenance issues, can be detrimental to one's flying career at some airlines like Lion Air.
BTW can a pilot refuse to fly with a particular copilot whom the pilot believes to be insufficiently experienced, insufficiently trained, or simply lacking good judgment?
BTW can a pilot refuse to fly with a particular copilot whom the pilot believes to be insufficiently experienced, insufficiently trained, or simply lacking good judgment?
Mar 18, 2019, 11:58 pm
#452
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I would hope that professional pilots working for major carriers would refuse to fly aircraft types on which they had received insufficient information and especially training. Before the Lion Air crash, there apparently hadn't been an acknowledgment from Boeing that some systems in the MAX 8 were very different, but afterward I would have expected more questions than have been reported, when they could reasonably have first suspected that some specialized training was needed. OTOH, I understand that refusal to fly an aircraft, even if there are serious maintenance issues, can be detrimental to one's flying career at some airlines like Lion Air.
BTW can a pilot refuse to fly with a particular copilot whom the pilot believes to be insufficiently experienced, insufficiently trained, or simply lacking good judgment?
BTW can a pilot refuse to fly with a particular copilot whom the pilot believes to be insufficiently experienced, insufficiently trained, or simply lacking good judgment?
"It can't happen here" is precisely what leads to massive failures of safety culture...
Mar 19, 2019, 12:22 am
#453
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Mar 19, 2019, 1:02 am
#454
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I am glad that the crash investigation went to France instead of the US, otherwise it would have possibly been a Boeing cover up, or Trump would have been the head of the investigation, lol...
Last edited by nk15; Mar 19, 2019 at 9:50 am
Mar 19, 2019, 8:18 am
#455
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I understand that "blame the Ethiopian pilots" is the go-to meme at the moment, but is there any evidence that an AA pilot who refused to fly the MAX despite the company, chief pilot, and Boeing assuring them that everything was fine and just like the -800 wouldn't find that detrimental to their flying career?
"It can't happen here" is precisely what leads to massive failures of safety culture...
"It can't happen here" is precisely what leads to massive failures of safety culture...
That's why I'm asking. Apparently AA FAs were allowed to reject trips that included flying on a MAX 8.
Mar 19, 2019, 8:35 am
#456
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You do realize that investigations here are conducted by the NTSB - the members and staff of which are universally viewed as being the utmost of professionals and experts. They have no reservations about telling Boeing or Airbus that they have a faulty product - and they've done so repeatedly (737-300/400 rudder hard overs, etc.).
Mar 19, 2019, 8:59 am
#457
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You do realize that investigations here are conducted by the NTSB - the members and staff of which are universally viewed as being the utmost of professionals and experts. They have no reservations about telling Boeing or Airbus that they have a faulty product - and they've done so repeatedly (737-300/400 rudder hard overs, etc.).
Mar 19, 2019, 9:32 am
#458
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Regardless, I think the events that transpired following the crash is indicative of how not only Ethiopia but also many other countries now view the United States in terms of it being a global leader. If I were Ethiopia and saw how the FAA continued to vouch for the plane’s safety days after the accident, how one of the major US airlines released a statement basically implying that the accident was a result of pilot error, and how involved Trump was in everything, I too would be looking to send the boxes to anywhere but the US.
Mar 19, 2019, 10:05 am
#459
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Regardless, I think the events that transpired following the crash is indicative of how not only Ethiopia but also many other countries now view the United States in terms of it being a global leader. If I were Ethiopia and saw how the FAA continued to vouch for the plane’s safety days after the accident, how one of the major US airlines released a statement basically implying that the accident was a result of pilot error, and how involved Trump was in everything, I too would be looking to send the boxes to anywhere but the US.
Mar 19, 2019, 11:03 am
#460
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100% agree. Makes you worry that the FAA and mostly the Trump admin is looking out for the reputation of Boeing and American jobs rather than the safety of the planes.
Mar 19, 2019, 11:21 am
#461
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I mean you can already see the two competing contentious narratives, "It was Boeing's equipment and training manual's fault" vs. "it was the lack of air carriers' training and experience standards", and everything in between...Which I guess is the age old question of manufacturer vs pilot error. Which is likely to be a combo of both, likely multifactorial.
Ironically France also has some potential conflict of interest here, as manufacturer of Airbus, but still probably best choice with I assume several safeguards added.
Ironically France also has some potential conflict of interest here, as manufacturer of Airbus, but still probably best choice with I assume several safeguards added.
Mar 19, 2019, 1:08 pm
#462
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Regardless, I think the events that transpired following the crash is indicative of how not only Ethiopia but also many other countries now view the United States in terms of it being a global leader. If I were Ethiopia and saw how the FAA continued to vouch for the plane’s safety days after the accident, how one of the major US airlines released a statement basically implying that the accident was a result of pilot error, and how involved Trump was in everything, I too would be looking to send the boxes to anywhere but the US.
The recorders belong to the investigatory body at this time.
*Ethiopian Airlines’ list shows 35 nationalities among the dead. In all, 157 people were on board. The list of nations who
lost passengers and numbers of passengers lost are below. If there’s no number, the nation listed lost one citizen - resident.
Austria (3)
Belgium
Djibouti
Ethiopia (32)
Germany (5)
Indonesia
Ireland
Israel (2)
Kenya (17)
Morocco (2)
Mozambique
Nepal
Nigeria
Norway
Poland (2)
Russia (3)
Rwanda
Spain (2)
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Somalia
Sudan
Sweden (3)
Togo
Uganda
Yemen
Mar 19, 2019, 1:19 pm
#463
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I think there’s some faulty assumptions here. The ET investigation is led in all instances by the local Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority and the Ethiopian Transport Authority, with other stakeholders. US NTSB because the aircraft is American, Boeing as manufacturer, other nations invited or experiencing losses*, such as Canadian TSB because Canadian passengers died, and French BEA involved with the “black boxes” decoding. This is established in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 5.27. Link to ICAO Annex 13.
The recorders belong to the investigatory body at this time.
*Ethiopian Airlines’ list shows 35 nationalities among the dead. In all, 157 people were on board. The list of nations who
lost passengers and numbers of passengers lost are below. If there’s no number, the nation listed lost one citizen - resident.
Austria (3)
Belgium
Djibouti
Ethiopia (32)
Germany (5)
Indonesia
Ireland
Israel (2)
Kenya (17)
Morocco (2)
Mozambique
Nepal
Nigeria
Norway
Poland (2)
Russia (3)
Rwanda
Spain (2)
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Somalia
Sudan
Sweden (3)
Togo
Uganda
Yemen
The recorders belong to the investigatory body at this time.
*Ethiopian Airlines’ list shows 35 nationalities among the dead. In all, 157 people were on board. The list of nations who
lost passengers and numbers of passengers lost are below. If there’s no number, the nation listed lost one citizen - resident.
Austria (3)
Belgium
Djibouti
Ethiopia (32)
Germany (5)
Indonesia
Ireland
Israel (2)
Kenya (17)
Morocco (2)
Mozambique
Nepal
Nigeria
Norway
Poland (2)
Russia (3)
Rwanda
Spain (2)
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Somalia
Sudan
Sweden (3)
Togo
Uganda
Yemen
Mar 19, 2019, 1:21 pm
#464
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I mean you can already see the two competing contentious narratives, "It was Boeing's equipment and training manual's fault" vs. "it was the lack of air carriers' training and experience standards", and everything in between...Which I guess is the age old question of manufacturer vs pilot error. Which is likely to be a combo of both, likely multifactorial.
Ironically France also has some potential conflict of interest here, as manufacturer of Airbus, but still probably best choice with I assume several safeguards added.
Ironically France also has some potential conflict of interest here, as manufacturer of Airbus, but still probably best choice with I assume several safeguards added.
Mar 19, 2019, 1:39 pm
#465
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