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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 13, 19, 2:38 pm
  #361  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill View Post
In fact, isn't that a leading candidate for the underlying cause of at least the Lion Air crash to which the Ethiopian Airlines crash has worrisome similarities? The aircraft are different in balance but Boeing added software to make them fly almost exactly the same as a 738 to save airlines crew retraining costs, and the preliminary evidence suggests that software reacted in a catastrophic way to bad sensor data in the Lion Air case. So 7M8 pilots are largely 738 pilots with less retraining than is typical for a new airplane.
I'd argue that pilots reacting in a catastrophic way to software reacting to bad sensor data was also the issue.

Note how the exact same failure mode that caused a TK 737 to crash short of the runway at AMS after a bad radar altimeter triggered logic that retarded the autothrottles to idle was noticed by an AA crew on approach to MIA. The AA crew quickly noticed the uncommanded rollback, disconnected the autopilot, pushed the throttles forward, and hand flew the airplane to a safe and uneventful landing. The TK pilots sat there fat, dumb, and happy for 90 seconds at idle thrust as their 737 flew them into a field.

Is it bad software design that a negative altitude readout on just one side's RA will trigger autothrottles to retard? Yes. Does that excuse a lack of basic airmanship and watching what your airplane is doing at all times? No.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:22 pm
  #362  
 
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Per AA.com

Newsroom - FAA Temporarily Grounds All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft - American Airlines Group, Inc.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:27 pm
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AA and SW's announcements sure read pretty defensive.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:29 pm
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Originally Posted by econometrics View Post
AA and SW's announcements sure read pretty defensive.
Because of this?

"We are complying with the FAA directive"
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:30 pm
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Two words - force majeure.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:35 pm
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Originally Posted by enviroian View Post
Because of this?

"We are complying with the FAA directive"
Because it takes them 3 long-winded bullet points (and over half the PR itself) about their daily flight operations, crew training, etc. etc. before getting to the actual point: "We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause some of our customers..."
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:41 pm
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So how safe is everyone going to feel flying these in the future, us as frequent fliers and the general public

I’ll argue that the max is forever tainted, I won’t fly one anytime soon after they issue an inevitable fix. Not worth the risk in my opinion. I’d bet the press hyping this up (which I agree with for the record) will impact the perception of all fliers. Only question being whether avg joe knows they are on a max or not
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:47 pm
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post
So how safe is everyone going to feel flying these in the future, us as frequent fliers and the general public

I’ll argue that the max is forever tainted, I won’t fly one anytime soon after they issue an inevitable fix. Not worth the risk in my opinion. I’d bet the press hyping this up (which I agree with for the record) will impact the perception of all fliers. Only question being whether avg joe knows they are on a max or not
Not flying on one for a long time if ever if I can help it. Boeing needs to hurry up and make a clean sheet 757 replacement and kill the 737 for good. It’s been dragged on for far too long and that’s really showing. You have to go pretty far back in history to find an aircraft with as poor of a safety record as the MAX and in such a short time after introduction.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:55 pm
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Originally Posted by Herb687 View Post
I'd argue that pilots reacting in a catastrophic way to software reacting to bad sensor data was also the issue. ...
Maybe I misunderstand you, but as I understand it the issue is more likely not the pilots reacting catastrophically, but instead handling the failure like any other 737 runaway stabalizer issue

As I understand it, with the other 737s they could control a runaway satabalizer by using the stabalizer trim buttons and turning off the autopilot. With the MAX though the MCAS is enabled when autopilot is off, and the trim buttons will not override the MCAS decision to faceplant the plane. The pilot has to hit the cutoff switch that disables all electronic control of the stabalizer trim and then use the mechanical wheel to bring it back up.

I see this more like a pilot acting like he was in any other 737 and not expecting an automated system (that the Lion Air pilot likely never even knew existed) to be overriding the trim buttons on the yoke that he was pressing.

Just because the pilot made a wrong decision does not always make it his fault. It could well be he never was properly made aware of the difference with the MCAS.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post
So how safe is everyone going to feel flying these in the future, us as frequent fliers and the general public

I’ll argue that the max is forever tainted, I won’t fly one anytime soon after they issue an inevitable fix. Not worth the risk in my opinion. I’d bet the press hyping this up (which I agree with for the record) will impact the perception of all fliers. Only question being whether avg joe knows they are on a max or not
Yea, this is different than the 787 issue, where people didn't crash and die.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 3:59 pm
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Gary Leff (View From the Wing) retweeted this earlier today, and I found it to be very interesting: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...n-the-737-max/

Gives a lot of background and perspective for "how we got here" with the MAX line today.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 4:27 pm
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Originally Posted by jackvogt View Post
This is a scary amount of hysteria that can only be attributed to social media. Two crashes in two different continents? Why can't we just let the investigations take place and then make a decision?
No.

You don't keep flying a plane until you find out if it's safe. You find out if it's safe first, and then, if it is, you can fly it.

This is not a criminal trial; the plane is not innocent until proven guilty.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 4:34 pm
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They also got satellite data about the flight overnight and it looks a lot like the previous crash.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 4:36 pm
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post
So how safe is everyone going to feel flying these in the future, us as frequent fliers and the general public

I’ll argue that the max is forever tainted, I won’t fly one anytime soon after they issue an inevitable fix. Not worth the risk in my opinion. I’d bet the press hyping this up (which I agree with for the record) will impact the perception of all fliers. Only question being whether avg joe knows they are on a max or not
Based on my reading on this issue, it seems like there was a mismatch between the automated systems and pilot training. It seems like it can be fixed. Boeing has too much on the line to mess it up at this point, as does the FAA. I’m guessing once the planes are allowed to fly again, they will be even safer than normal. It’s just sad that Boeing was forced into this
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Old Mar 13, 19, 4:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post


Based on my reading on this issue, it seems like there was a mismatch between the automated systems and pilot training. It seems like it can be fixed. Boeing has too much on the line to mess it up at this point, as does the FAA. I’m guessing once the planes are allowed to fly again, they will be even safer than normal. It’s just sad that Boeing was forced into this
Sorry if the system resulted in such catastrophic failure the senior pilots with 8000 hours couldn’t over come, also worth nothing the et pilots were trained on the max then there seems to be something far more serious going on

if someone is ok getting on these planes power to you. I’ll take alternative routings for the foreseeable future to avoid the max
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