Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
Jan 10, 2020, 5:45 pm
#796
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,353
As an engineer, this article really resonates with me: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...sed-by-monkeys
It contains a lot more quotes (and context) from the internal emails and messages.
Some are clearly just frustrated employees letting off steam (ie the clowns/monkeys quote, which is funny but honestly not really an uncommon type of statement to make). But there are definitely more disturbing things here. It does look like senior management was pushing to have some facts hidden from the FAA.
My biggest question is, is the FAA actually able to do their job effectively? Or have we gotten to the point that planes are so complicated that no one at the FAA understands what is going on and they basically have to take the word of the senior engineers at the company that makes them? Is the "dogs watching TV" quote accurate?
And I don't mean to pick on the FAA; this is a problem with other regulatory agencies as well. There was talk of making the Indian regulators "feel stupid" for even suggesting that simulator training be required. But of course most agencies will follow the lead of the FAA so it's most important that they get it right.
This has probably moved away from being AA-specific; this is just the only thread where real discussion in happening (on most other threads anything that is critical of the MAX is just deleted due to being "off topic") But if people refuse to fly this plane (or if the regulators refuse to approve it, or if congress blocks it somehow), the effect on AA will be significant. So it's at least tangentially on-topic
It contains a lot more quotes (and context) from the internal emails and messages.
Some are clearly just frustrated employees letting off steam (ie the clowns/monkeys quote, which is funny but honestly not really an uncommon type of statement to make). But there are definitely more disturbing things here. It does look like senior management was pushing to have some facts hidden from the FAA.
My biggest question is, is the FAA actually able to do their job effectively? Or have we gotten to the point that planes are so complicated that no one at the FAA understands what is going on and they basically have to take the word of the senior engineers at the company that makes them? Is the "dogs watching TV" quote accurate?
And I don't mean to pick on the FAA; this is a problem with other regulatory agencies as well. There was talk of making the Indian regulators "feel stupid" for even suggesting that simulator training be required. But of course most agencies will follow the lead of the FAA so it's most important that they get it right.
This has probably moved away from being AA-specific; this is just the only thread where real discussion in happening (on most other threads anything that is critical of the MAX is just deleted due to being "off topic") But if people refuse to fly this plane (or if the regulators refuse to approve it, or if congress blocks it somehow), the effect on AA will be significant. So it's at least tangentially on-topic
I think the MAX issues have greater impact on AA flyers than some other airlines because, unlike UA and WN, AA has not publically stated that they will allow people to book away from MAX flights -- and reports here were that after 2 crashes and before the US grounding they were refusing to rebook concerned flyers. So travelers who plan to avoid the MAX for a while (personally I think they can eventually be made safe and will fly on them...after a year or two of operation. Until then my family and I will respectfully decline to fly on one) should consider that when deciding which airline to use for routes that could involve a 737-MAX.
Jan 10, 2020, 6:35 pm
#797
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
Jan 11, 2020, 4:48 pm
#800
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CLE
Programs: UA,WN,AA,DL, B6
Posts: 4,169
Jan 11, 2020, 11:13 pm
#801
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
Jan 12, 2020, 1:01 am
#802
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ernal-messages
I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214
I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
Jan 12, 2020, 1:35 am
#803
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,039
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.
Jan 14, 2020, 9:28 am
#804
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Bloomberg reports that Lion Air of Indonesia, which lost a 737 MAX in 2018, considered requiring MAX simulator training until they were talked out of it as unnecessary by Boeing
Link to article
Doing simulator training would have undercut a critical selling point of the jet: that airlines would be able to allow crews trained on an older 737 version to fly the Max after just a brief computer course.
In a report on the Oct. 29, 2018 accident, Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee cited a failure by Boeing to tell pilots about the new flight-control feature on the jet, called MCAS, and the need to provide training on it so that pilots would be able to better respond to malfunctions.
The report also cited shortfalls in the crew’s ability to perform emergency check lists, fly the plane manually and communicate about the emergency. The copilot, who took nearly four minutes to look up an emergency procedure he was supposed to have memorized, was singled out for repeated failures during training.
In a report on the Oct. 29, 2018 accident, Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee cited a failure by Boeing to tell pilots about the new flight-control feature on the jet, called MCAS, and the need to provide training on it so that pilots would be able to better respond to malfunctions.
The report also cited shortfalls in the crew’s ability to perform emergency check lists, fly the plane manually and communicate about the emergency. The copilot, who took nearly four minutes to look up an emergency procedure he was supposed to have memorized, was singled out for repeated failures during training.
Jan 14, 2020, 11:14 am
#805
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
Bloomberg reports that Lion Air of Indonesia, which lost a 737 MAX in 2018, considered requiring MAX simulator training until they were talked out of it as unnecessary by Boeing
Link to article
Link to article
Jan 15, 2020, 8:07 am
#807
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,234
Who's to say whether the simulators would even have been programmed with an unexpected MCAS activation? Especially when Boeing didn't even disclose anything about MCAS. And IIRC some of the sim work post-accident had to be programmed in to existing MAX simulators to replicate the incidents. So I'm not convinced simulator training would have prevented this, but this isn't my area of expertise so feel free to try.
Jan 15, 2020, 8:10 am
#808
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
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Posts: 12,809
Who's to say whether the simulators would even have been programmed with an unexpected MCAS activation? Especially when Boeing didn't even disclose anything about MCAS. And IIRC some of the sim work post-accident had to be programmed in to existing MAX simulators to replicate the incidents. So I'm not convinced simulator training would have prevented this, but this isn't my area of expertise so feel free to try.
Jan 15, 2020, 9:22 am
#809
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Programs: AAdvantage PP
Posts: 13,913
Not surprising AA has pushed back the re-entry service date to early June, right before the summer season kicks off. Another summer without the Max (looking to be a good possibility) and you wonder what the relationship with Boeing will be. Much worse for WN that was using the Max as the backbone of their expansion. Talk about chasing a long time standalone customer into the hands of Airbus.
Jan 15, 2020, 9:25 am
#810
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,039
-these airlines requested training on the new aircraft type
-the engineers mocked these airlines for being incompetent
-Boeing told them no additional training was needed
-346 people died
-Boeing attempted to shift the blame to the 3rd world airlines and their inexperienced pilots
-this tactic semi-worked until those internal emails and messages were released
-Boeing is in a bad position now because, even if the Max reemerges as the safest plane in history, many of us simply don't trust Boeing at present, and will make sure to avoid Max at all costs
-sometimes we talk about the idea that the general public doesn't care about what plane their flying on; this is different because if/when the Max returns, there will be extensive media coverage detailing which airlines have it, which ones don't, how to avoid Max flights, and why you might want to avoid Max flights