jordyn

The government subsidies that AA gets are only the fair kind, I guess?

pinniped

I find it incredibly rich that U.S. airlines whinge about airlines in *other countries* receiving unfair subsidies, protections, benefits, favorable regulation, or protection from competition.

iahphx

To my knowledge, EVERYONE flying to Iceland from the USA is doing it with their own funds and NOT gov't subsidies. Unless you're going to go the Gary Leff route and argue that in 1933 American got some money from the post office, etc. or Icelandair has a contract for gov't bureaucrats to travel.

You can certainly argue that AA is entering the market to drive out competition, and I think that's right. You can also argue that the folks running WOW and Iceland Air have a business model that doesn't work either, and I suspect that's also right. AA's actions really aren't any different than what Amazon does everyday (Amazon being the world's largest non-profit, throwing it's weight against smaller companies that actually have to sell above their costs to stay in business). Big business can be brutal.

ryan182

As I understand it (and I might be wrong) the counter argument made in favor of the ME3 about 'subsidies' for the US3 has nothing to do with the 1930s but more around the fact that their GCs can find a US district bankruptsy court drunk and blindfolded due to their frequent flier status at said counts which has allowed them to shed billions in liabilities. The argument goes that the ME3 can only provide opulent levels of service and operate to as many destinations because their governments prop them up, the counter argument is that the US3 provide far less service, have less opulent cabins, lounges, meals, booze but when they lose enough money they make the beeline to CH11 and **magic** billions of debt and pension liabilities vanish. Frankly the reality is probably somewhat in the middle but either way I'd much prefer EK or EY First over AA/DL/UA anything so Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

desi

Bit OT.

But did they upgrade to flat seats in AA 204 (PHL-AMS) already? Seatguru still shows angled seats.

ashill

Always take Seatguru with a salt shaker, and then add some additional skepticism to any details they provide.

chrisny2

Really? Between layflat and angled?

Long Train Runnin

Sure. If you are using their tool for your flight date and number. It is just guessing. They don't know what aircraft will actually be flying that route on a given day. If its more then 24 hours out its totally possible AA isn't even sure what aircraft is going to be used that day, so how could SeatGuru know. Best bet is to take a look at the 757 thread covering the refurb here on FT to see how many are done.

chrisny2

Ah - I don't think I even realized you can look up flights on seatguru by flight date/number. I've only ever looked up specific plane types.

iahphx

Off topic for this thread, but if you'll look at it simplistically, the difference is that the US carriers are normal businesses that need to make a profit. The Middle East carriers are gov't owned, and their purpose is not to make a profit, but to enrich the prestige, economic development and importance of their nations. Other airlines in the world are subsidized (the US airlines are not currently among them), but the subsidies of the ME3 are so huge and unlike anything else the world has ever seen so that no "for profit" company can directly compete against them. As a customer, looking at your own self-interest, you SHOULD fly the ME3 because they will give you far more for your money than any for-profit company. It's a totally different question whether, as a matter of public policy, the US should allow these airlines to take subsidized passengers away from the US carriers. Other countries, like Canada, recognize the imbalance and limit the ME3 operations.

None of these issues arise in Iceland. It's just regular commercial competition against businesses with different models. May the better capitalists win.

ashill

And even specific plane type maps on Seatguru don't get updated reliably when they're changed, and even if Seatguru's information is up to date it's often wrong. I often disagree with their "good" and "bad" seat descriptions, which are often generic anyway (eg a seat at the front of the cabin more or less automatically gets labeled "could have restricted leg room. The galley could be noisy or distracting." whether or not that's true on that plane) even though they make them seem specific.

But specific to this thread, I would definitely trust AA's press release, saying the flight will be operated by 757s with lie-flat seats, over whatever Seatguru says about a version of the 757 that I'm not sure AA even still operates. If you just want to know whether a plane has lie-flat seats, I'd go to AA, not Seatguru. Why would a third party be more reliable on a simple factual thing like that than AA? (Not saying AA or any other airline is perfect about providing information about their own fleet, but third party sites like Seatguru are virtually certain to be worse if they're not vigilantly updated, and Seatguru isn't vigilantly updated.)

Beltway2A

Unless Congress has repealed the Essential Air Service without anyone noticing, this is starkly untrue.

pinniped

You're too focused on one type of direct government subsidies. My point is that U.S. airlines are well taken care of by our political and legal system in a wide variety of ways that protect them from competition, liabilities, passenger rights - as well as give them direct subsidies to provide EAS. Our airlines enjoy cozy relationships with local governments who protect their fortress hubs, local and state governments who give them tax breaks, and the Federal government who allows them to engage in anticompetitive behavior at will.

May the best most politically-connected capitalists win indeed...

pinniped

To the original point of the thread: has anyone seen deep-discount AA DFW-KEF fares online today? I priced MCI-KEF for next summer: routes through DFW, but not really a great fare. Also priced just DFW-KEF and found so-so fares of $685 R/T. (It *was* midsummer, ideal dates to visit Iceland.) Didn't poke around at shoulder-season fares...

ashill

Iceland Air has a business model that doesn't work? They've been taking advantage of their geography to sell connections from North America to Europe for a very long time. Stopovers in Iceland are a small additional selling point they can use (and make more money on through their hotel business). I'm surprised to hear any claim that the business model doesn't work; KEF-hubbed airlines are essentially the only way to have a trans-Atlantic operation with a significant cost advantage (due to shorter stage lengths) over traditional carriers. But I agree with everyone else that AA's DFW-KEF flight is clearly trying to prevent Iceland Air from undercutting them on DFW-Europe trips. I don't know how much DFW-KEF local traffic there is; I assume not much, which means I'm skeptical that AA's DFW-KEF flight will be very effective in undercutting Iceland Air's connecting DFW-Europe traffic. It's a lot harder to get monopoly benefits when fighting over one-stop traffic than when competing over non-stop traffic.