When Bose Headsets go Missing (merged threads)
Jan 14, 2017 | 7:22 pm
#91
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They can, I believe. Similar to a security guard checking your bags as you leave a department store. However, I believe that you have the right to insist that a police officer (as opposed to a private security guard) do the search if you're willing to wait for one. I did that once at a department store, -- insisted that they could call the police or I would walk out.
The police, nor the airline have any right to search you in this case. The police could be called in, but without a warrant or proof, the search would be illegal. They cant conduct a mass search. The airline FA would have to certify they saw you take it, not simply that you might have it for officer to have proof. In doing so the FA and airline become liable if FA lied to get the search done.
Jan 14, 2017 | 7:24 pm
#92
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They can, I believe. Similar to a security guard checking your bags as you leave a department store. However, I believe that you have the right to insist that a police officer (as opposed to a private security guard) do the search if you're willing to wait for one. I did that once at a department store, -- insisted that they could call the police or I would walk out.
Jan 14, 2017 | 8:27 pm
#94
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They can, I believe. Similar to a security guard checking your bags as you leave a department store. However, I believe that you have the right to insist that a police officer (as opposed to a private security guard) do the search if you're willing to wait for one. I did that once at a department store, -- insisted that they could call the police or I would walk out.
The exception is membership stores like Costco, where membership includes agreeing to inspection of personal items.
As for the plane context, if any airline personnel ever demanded to go through my carry-ons, I'd tell them, "call a LEO when we land and, in the interim, please let me know the address of the airline's agent for service of process."
I'm also unaware of any state or federal statute or CFR that allows an airline to hold passengers hostage until some would-be miscreant turns in a headphone he attempted to steal. Are you?
Jan 14, 2017 | 8:48 pm
#95
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Looks like the flight departed nearly on time -- was the item found? Keep us posted after you land!
Jan 14, 2017 | 8:51 pm
#96
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Even Costco where you agree to the terms can't make you undergo a search when leaving. They can void your membership of you refuse, but that's it. It would be a simple civil matter that police would refuse to get involved in.
Jan 14, 2017 | 8:59 pm
#97
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"(k) Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with paragraphs (f), (g), (h), and (l) of this section."
f, g, h, i are about fastening safety belts and smoking. My reading of some cases suggests that appeals courts have ruled in favor of the airlines whenever a passenger fails to follow a rule related to safety (such as blocking the aisles, etc), so I think that it's safe to say that broadly speaking you have to follow all crewmember instructions related to safety.
I think though, it would be hard to sell a missing headphone as safety related. I doubt the FAs have any authority under any CFR to search your bags.
But then airline CoCs usually require that you follow all crewmember instructions, usually under some "acceptance of passengers" provision. So I guess they could blacklist you on future flights.
I think really though, AA needs to rethink its stupid headphone policy. It's really annoying and kills the "premium" experience. I mean none of the other airlines I've been on do this...
Jan 14, 2017 | 10:43 pm
#98
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Hm, so the universally cited rule that you must "follow crewmember instructions", at least for US Flag Carriers, is codified in 14 CFR 121.317(k):
"(k) Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with paragraphs (f), (g), (h), and (l) of this section."
f, g, h, i are about fastening safety belts and smoking. My reading of some cases suggests that appeals courts have ruled in favor of the airlines whenever a passenger fails to follow a rule related to safety (such as blocking the aisles, etc), so I think that it's safe to say that broadly speaking you have to follow all crewmember instructions related to safety.
I think though, it would be hard to sell a missing headphone as safety related. I doubt the FAs have any authority under any CFR to search your bags.
"(k) Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with paragraphs (f), (g), (h), and (l) of this section."
f, g, h, i are about fastening safety belts and smoking. My reading of some cases suggests that appeals courts have ruled in favor of the airlines whenever a passenger fails to follow a rule related to safety (such as blocking the aisles, etc), so I think that it's safe to say that broadly speaking you have to follow all crewmember instructions related to safety.
I think though, it would be hard to sell a missing headphone as safety related. I doubt the FAs have any authority under any CFR to search your bags.
Someone pinching a pair of NC headphones is not safety-related and, irrespective of what over-zealous FAs may think, the requirement to follow crew instructions doesn't extend to unlawful demands.
But then airline CoCs usually require that you follow all crewmember instructions, usually under some "acceptance of passengers" provision. So I guess they could blacklist you on future flights.
I think really though, AA needs to rethink its stupid headphone policy. It's really annoying and kills the "premium" experience. I mean none of the other airlines I've been on do this...
Jan 15, 2017 | 12:29 am
#99
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I am certain that the department store has no right to check your bags either. There is a whole thread about it.
Jan 15, 2017 | 11:32 am
#100
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My understanding of the law in California is that they can NOT go through your bags as you leave a department store. They can detain you while law enforcement is called IF they have reasonable grounds to do so -- otherwise they can be liable for false imprisonment and, if the physically prevent you from leaving, battery.
(f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchants premises.
A theater owner may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the theater owner has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater.
A person employed by a library facility may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the person employed by a library facility has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully remove or has unlawfully removed books or library materials from the premises of the library facility.
(2) In making the detention a merchant, theater owner, or a person employed by a library facility may use a reasonable amount of nondeadly force necessary to protect himself or herself and to prevent escape of the person detained or the loss of tangible or intangible property.
(3) During the period of detention any items which a merchant or theater owner, or any items which a person employed by a library facility has probable cause to believe are unlawfully taken from the premises of the merchant or library facility, or recorded on theater premises, and which are in plain view may be examined by the merchant, theater owner, or person employed by a library facility for the purposes of ascertaining the ownership thereof.
(4) A merchant, theater owner, a person employed by a library facility, or an agent thereof, having probable cause to believe the person detained was attempting to unlawfully take or has taken any item from the premises, or was attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater, may request the person detained to voluntarily surrender the item or recording. Should the person detained refuse to surrender the recording or item of which there is probable cause to believe has been recorded on or unlawfully taken from the premises, or attempted to be recorded or unlawfully taken from the premises, a limited and reasonable search may be conducted by those authorized to make the detention in order to recover the item. Only packages, shopping bags, handbags or other property in the immediate possession of the person detained, but not including any clothing worn by the person, may be searched pursuant to this subdivision. Upon surrender or discovery of the item, the person detained may also be requested, but may not be required, to provide adequate proof of his or her true identity.
(5) If any person admitted to a theater in which a motion picture is to be or is being exhibited, refuses or fails to give or surrender possession or to cease operation of any video recording device that the person has brought into or attempts to bring into that theater, then a theater owner shall have the right to refuse admission to that person or request that the person leave the premises and shall thereupon offer to refund and, unless that offer is refused, refund to that person the price paid by that person for admission to that theater. If the person thereafter refuses to leave the theater or cease operation of the video recording device, then the person shall be deemed to be intentionally interfering with and obstructing those attempting to carry on a lawful business within the meaning of Section 602.1.
(6) A peace officer who accepts custody of a person arrested for an offense contained in this section may, subsequent to the arrest, search the person arrested and his or her immediate possessions for any item or items alleged to have been taken.
(7) In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or arrest by a merchant, it shall be a defense to such action that the merchant detaining or arresting such person had probable cause to believe that the person had stolen or attempted to steal merchandise and that the merchant acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or arrest by a theater owner or person employed by a library facility, it shall be a defense to that action that the theater owner or person employed by a library facility detaining or arresting that person had probable cause to believe that the person was attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater or had stolen or attempted to steal books or library materials and that the person employed by a library facility acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
A theater owner may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the theater owner has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater.
A person employed by a library facility may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the person employed by a library facility has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully remove or has unlawfully removed books or library materials from the premises of the library facility.
(2) In making the detention a merchant, theater owner, or a person employed by a library facility may use a reasonable amount of nondeadly force necessary to protect himself or herself and to prevent escape of the person detained or the loss of tangible or intangible property.
(3) During the period of detention any items which a merchant or theater owner, or any items which a person employed by a library facility has probable cause to believe are unlawfully taken from the premises of the merchant or library facility, or recorded on theater premises, and which are in plain view may be examined by the merchant, theater owner, or person employed by a library facility for the purposes of ascertaining the ownership thereof.
(4) A merchant, theater owner, a person employed by a library facility, or an agent thereof, having probable cause to believe the person detained was attempting to unlawfully take or has taken any item from the premises, or was attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater, may request the person detained to voluntarily surrender the item or recording. Should the person detained refuse to surrender the recording or item of which there is probable cause to believe has been recorded on or unlawfully taken from the premises, or attempted to be recorded or unlawfully taken from the premises, a limited and reasonable search may be conducted by those authorized to make the detention in order to recover the item. Only packages, shopping bags, handbags or other property in the immediate possession of the person detained, but not including any clothing worn by the person, may be searched pursuant to this subdivision. Upon surrender or discovery of the item, the person detained may also be requested, but may not be required, to provide adequate proof of his or her true identity.
(5) If any person admitted to a theater in which a motion picture is to be or is being exhibited, refuses or fails to give or surrender possession or to cease operation of any video recording device that the person has brought into or attempts to bring into that theater, then a theater owner shall have the right to refuse admission to that person or request that the person leave the premises and shall thereupon offer to refund and, unless that offer is refused, refund to that person the price paid by that person for admission to that theater. If the person thereafter refuses to leave the theater or cease operation of the video recording device, then the person shall be deemed to be intentionally interfering with and obstructing those attempting to carry on a lawful business within the meaning of Section 602.1.
(6) A peace officer who accepts custody of a person arrested for an offense contained in this section may, subsequent to the arrest, search the person arrested and his or her immediate possessions for any item or items alleged to have been taken.
(7) In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or arrest by a merchant, it shall be a defense to such action that the merchant detaining or arresting such person had probable cause to believe that the person had stolen or attempted to steal merchandise and that the merchant acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or arrest by a theater owner or person employed by a library facility, it shall be a defense to that action that the theater owner or person employed by a library facility detaining or arresting that person had probable cause to believe that the person was attempting to operate a video recording device within the premises of a motion picture theater without the authority of the owner of the theater or had stolen or attempted to steal books or library materials and that the person employed by a library facility acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
Jan 15, 2017 | 2:23 pm
#101
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Jan 15, 2017 | 3:06 pm
#102
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This happened back on January 8th during my flight from LHR to ORD. Don't think they recovered the missing headset but what exactly do they find hard about doing a simple inventory and allocation count?
Jan 15, 2017 | 3:34 pm
#103
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"A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchants premises."
Probable cause required. It is not probable cause to say, "the person is leaving the store with a bag, so I'm going to detain the person and search the bag."
Jan 15, 2017 | 8:16 pm
#104
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You might want to look as well:
"A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchants premises."
Probable cause required. It is not probable cause to say, "the person is leaving the store with a bag, so I'm going to detain the person and search the bag."
"A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchants premises."
Probable cause required. It is not probable cause to say, "the person is leaving the store with a bag, so I'm going to detain the person and search the bag."
OT, I flew PVG-LAX in IFC recently. Was given the Bose after takeoff. Later in flight went and asked the FA in J galley (none up front) for a power adapter. Happily was given one. Amount 1 before landing they came around and asked for headsets. Amount 20 minutes before landing I'm packing up laptop, etc and unplug the power and adapter. I then hand it to the purser who happened to be right by me. See looked at me shocked. In a very accusatory tone asked "where did you get this" like I had gone and taken it out myself. I point out I went and asked the FA for one and he gave it to me. She then proceeded to go find that FA and give him a major chewing out. Apparently he never marked it down and had forgotten giving it to me and purser had filled out paperwork for the loss.
Jan 16, 2017 | 6:29 am
#105
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I've taken to refusing even requests for receipts. I find that that most stores don't employee enough employees to help customers. However they make sure to employ them to harass them as you leave.
OT, I flew PVG-LAX in IFC recently. Was given the Bose after takeoff. Later in flight went and asked the FA in J galley (none up front) for a power adapter. Happily was given one. Amount 1 before landing they came around and asked for headsets. Amount 20 minutes before landing I'm packing up laptop, etc and unplug the power and adapter. I then hand it to the purser who happened to be right by me. See looked at me shocked. In a very accusatory tone asked "where did you get this" like I had gone and taken it out myself. I point out I went and asked the FA for one and he gave it to me. She then proceeded to go find that FA and give him a major chewing out. Apparently he never marked it down and had forgotten giving it to me and purser had filled out paperwork for the loss.
OT, I flew PVG-LAX in IFC recently. Was given the Bose after takeoff. Later in flight went and asked the FA in J galley (none up front) for a power adapter. Happily was given one. Amount 1 before landing they came around and asked for headsets. Amount 20 minutes before landing I'm packing up laptop, etc and unplug the power and adapter. I then hand it to the purser who happened to be right by me. See looked at me shocked. In a very accusatory tone asked "where did you get this" like I had gone and taken it out myself. I point out I went and asked the FA for one and he gave it to me. She then proceeded to go find that FA and give him a major chewing out. Apparently he never marked it down and had forgotten giving it to me and purser had filled out paperwork for the loss.
Meanwhile, on other carriers (JL, LH, etc.)... They actually trust F passengers enough to keep their Bose headsets until after arriving at the gate. I wonder if they experience as much pilferage? Somehow I doubt it.
-FlyerBeek