Jan 31, 2015, 1:17 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
NOTE: See AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (consolidated) for VOLUNTARY denied boarding.
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5
CFR §250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
Code:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than
there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will
until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation
willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not
enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in
accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events,
American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also
consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the
AAdvantage® program.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of
‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
- You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and
reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation
under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
- You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted
for safety or operational reasons; or
- On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied
boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
- You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than
specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section
for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
- The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned
to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the
planned arrival time of your original flight.
IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)
May 2, 2017, 9:48 pm
#166
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
In any case, I do agree with others that you probably don't have much recourse at this point. At some point the potential benefits no longer look worthwhile versus the time and money you'd have to invest to pursue them.
May 3, 2017, 6:04 pm
#167
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 5
Hmm, unfortunately this may be the result of the way you stated your claim. It's true that small claims courts don't have jurisdiction over American's oversales policies, the contract of carriage actually contains all the same provisions as the IDB regulations so you could have just asserted a breach of contract claim which the court would have jurisdiction over.
In any case, I do agree with others that you probably don't have much recourse at this point. At some point the potential benefits no longer look worthwhile versus the time and money you'd have to invest to pursue them.
In any case, I do agree with others that you probably don't have much recourse at this point. At some point the potential benefits no longer look worthwhile versus the time and money you'd have to invest to pursue them.
We prevailed on a breach of contract claim.
The treatment we received still rankles me. I doubt I'll fly American again. Lousy customer service.
Jan 21, 2018, 5:02 pm
#169
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: TLV/ATH/LON/EZE/NYC/UIP
Programs: BA*GGL, A3*G, AF*P, VS*S
Posts: 1,011
DUB-PHL equipment change from 3-class to 2-class A330 - involuntary downgrade from Premium Econ to Y.
They called at 12.30am (ie the middle of the night) with the flight departing at 10.30am to tell me, so I was asleep and found out at 5am when I got the voicemail. The outbound flight leaves PHL at 21.00 EST ie 2am UK. So the equipment change either happened really last-second or they could have got their act together and called what turned out to be just 3 of us at a civilized hour instead.
To make matters worse, I was actually in London and hopping across to Dublin early that morning for the flight. I called AA and they insisted I had to go to Dublin even though their direct LHR-PHL had an empty business class and landed 5 mins later than my original flight. They claimed this would constitute a voluntary reroute and a complete repricing at my expense. The very sympathetic crew on board my quite uncomfortable 8 hour DUB-PHL with its appalling IFE and mediocre catering, told me they upgraded 8 and downgraded 3 of the PE pax and I was unlucky.
It beggars belief that they didn't just let me go LHR-PHL, which would have been a win for everyone. On top of all that, they made such a meal of re-issuing my ticket in Y that I couldn't get a boarding pass printed or on my phone so as to stay airside for the transit in Dublin, and nearly couldn't stand by for an earlier PHL-MIA flight the following day on the same itinerary as they had rendered my whole ticket totally inflexible - I only managed it by ignoring the advice of the call centre, check-in desk and help desk airside at PHL and getting a fantastic gate agent (his name was Mr Grey - I told him he was my favourite shade thereof) who found a way around the block.
For what it's worth, I'm BA Gold ie equivalent of ExPlat, and was on hand luggage only. My ticket was issued by BA on 125 stock and I strongly suspect that they automatically prioritised the 001 ticket holders.
In their voicemail they have offered $250 in compensation which as an EU-origin flight is roughly their statutory obligation under EC261 (50% of the sector fare). After I wrote and complained, they appeared to offer $250 in vouchers but it's unclear from the response I got as to whether this is the same $250. Even $500 total really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned. The (also very embarrassed and sympathetic) check-in agent at DUB thought $1000 in flight credit would be appropriate (me too) but obviously was not in a position to offer it.
I suspect AA have discharged their legal obligations for EC261 with the $250 so it's all goodwill from here. Any thoughts as to what I should be asking would be welcome!
They called at 12.30am (ie the middle of the night) with the flight departing at 10.30am to tell me, so I was asleep and found out at 5am when I got the voicemail. The outbound flight leaves PHL at 21.00 EST ie 2am UK. So the equipment change either happened really last-second or they could have got their act together and called what turned out to be just 3 of us at a civilized hour instead.
To make matters worse, I was actually in London and hopping across to Dublin early that morning for the flight. I called AA and they insisted I had to go to Dublin even though their direct LHR-PHL had an empty business class and landed 5 mins later than my original flight. They claimed this would constitute a voluntary reroute and a complete repricing at my expense. The very sympathetic crew on board my quite uncomfortable 8 hour DUB-PHL with its appalling IFE and mediocre catering, told me they upgraded 8 and downgraded 3 of the PE pax and I was unlucky.
It beggars belief that they didn't just let me go LHR-PHL, which would have been a win for everyone. On top of all that, they made such a meal of re-issuing my ticket in Y that I couldn't get a boarding pass printed or on my phone so as to stay airside for the transit in Dublin, and nearly couldn't stand by for an earlier PHL-MIA flight the following day on the same itinerary as they had rendered my whole ticket totally inflexible - I only managed it by ignoring the advice of the call centre, check-in desk and help desk airside at PHL and getting a fantastic gate agent (his name was Mr Grey - I told him he was my favourite shade thereof) who found a way around the block.
For what it's worth, I'm BA Gold ie equivalent of ExPlat, and was on hand luggage only. My ticket was issued by BA on 125 stock and I strongly suspect that they automatically prioritised the 001 ticket holders.
In their voicemail they have offered $250 in compensation which as an EU-origin flight is roughly their statutory obligation under EC261 (50% of the sector fare). After I wrote and complained, they appeared to offer $250 in vouchers but it's unclear from the response I got as to whether this is the same $250. Even $500 total really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned. The (also very embarrassed and sympathetic) check-in agent at DUB thought $1000 in flight credit would be appropriate (me too) but obviously was not in a position to offer it.
I suspect AA have discharged their legal obligations for EC261 with the $250 so it's all goodwill from here. Any thoughts as to what I should be asking would be welcome!
Jan 21, 2018, 6:11 pm
#170
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Programs: ►QFWP/LTG►VA WP►HyattExpl.►HiltonGold►ALL Silver
Posts: 21,994
What was the fare breakdown? How much taxes.
With regard to recent court rulings (e.g. Mennens) the compensation should be 75% of the cost of the pro rata cost of the segment in relation to the booking. (75% since DUB-PHL is over 3500KM)
If it was a simple DUB-PHL-DUB return booking then the compensation could be calculated so:
Total paid = fare + taxes + levies + charges.
Compensation = (fare divided by 2) times 75%.
(It can be more complicated, especially when APD could be taken into account for some itineraries, but ex DUB, leave it at that).
With regard to recent court rulings (e.g. Mennens) the compensation should be 75% of the cost of the pro rata cost of the segment in relation to the booking. (75% since DUB-PHL is over 3500KM)
If it was a simple DUB-PHL-DUB return booking then the compensation could be calculated so:
Total paid = fare + taxes + levies + charges.
Compensation = (fare divided by 2) times 75%.
(It can be more complicated, especially when APD could be taken into account for some itineraries, but ex DUB, leave it at that).
Last edited by serfty; Jan 21, 2018 at 6:17 pm
Jan 21, 2018, 6:32 pm
#171
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA & UK -- AA EXP 3.5MM, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Plat, Avis President's Club
Posts: 6,411
DUB-PHL equipment change from 3-class to 2-class A330 - involuntary downgrade from Premium Econ to Y.
...
Even $500 total really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned. The (also very embarrassed and sympathetic) check-in agent at DUB thought $1000 in flight credit would be appropriate (me too) but obviously was not in a position to offer it.
...
Even $500 total really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned. The (also very embarrassed and sympathetic) check-in agent at DUB thought $1000 in flight credit would be appropriate (me too) but obviously was not in a position to offer it.
Jan 21, 2018, 6:42 pm
#172
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Programs: ►QFWP/LTG►VA WP►HyattExpl.►HiltonGold►ALL Silver
Posts: 21,994
The flight comes under EU261/2004. With that any refund has nothing to do with price differences. It's a flat 75% of the original fare price paid for the downgraded segment.
Jan 22, 2018, 2:49 pm
#173
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: TLV/ATH/LON/EZE/NYC/UIP
Programs: BA*GGL, A3*G, AF*P, VS*S
Posts: 1,011
What was the fare breakdown? How much taxes.
With regard to recent court rulings (e.g. Mennens) the compensation should be 75% of the cost of the pro rata cost of the segment in relation to the booking. (75% since DUB-PHL is over 3500KM)
If it was a simple DUB-PHL-DUB return booking then the compensation could be calculated so:
Total paid = fare + taxes + levies + charges.
Compensation = (fare divided by 2) times 75%.
(It can be more complicated, especially when APD could be taken into account for some itineraries, but ex DUB, leave it at that).
With regard to recent court rulings (e.g. Mennens) the compensation should be 75% of the cost of the pro rata cost of the segment in relation to the booking. (75% since DUB-PHL is over 3500KM)
If it was a simple DUB-PHL-DUB return booking then the compensation could be calculated so:
Total paid = fare + taxes + levies + charges.
Compensation = (fare divided by 2) times 75%.
(It can be more complicated, especially when APD could be taken into account for some itineraries, but ex DUB, leave it at that).
None of that compensates for the lost productivity during or after the flight, or the annoyance that they managed to upgrade 8 of the 11 pax and could have done the same for me by letting me fly from London on an invol basis. I strongly suspect, especially having done the maths, that the combination of the BA-issued ticket and the superb price I got made me a prime target for downgrade. So what I'm asking here is what you think a reasonable goodwill gesture is, over and above the $250 already offered?
Jan 22, 2018, 3:49 pm
#174
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Programs: ►QFWP/LTG►VA WP►HyattExpl.►HiltonGold►ALL Silver
Posts: 21,994
Yes, assuming the booking was PHL-xMIA-DUB-PHL and you do not have a breakdown of the individual sector fare components then EU refund would be calculated as €124 so the $250 is certainly better, even in vouchers.
Really, only you can answer that - you need to consider your time and effort against any further gain.
So what I'm asking here is what you think a reasonable goodwill gesture is, over and above the $250 already offered?
Jan 1, 2019, 2:07 pm
#176
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: DAY
Programs: Marriott Platinum, HHonors Diamond, AA ExPLT
Posts: 116
Seems like IDB, thoughts?
I booked my wife a sAAver F ticket- 3 legs. Xxx-ord-phl-YYY. ORD-PHL (AA2095) was delayed. Her app updated and showed she was rebooked onto a later flight. She ran and made it prior to door closing. Her F seat was given away, and only 12B was left on the CR7. Then they told her she couldn’t board because her bag wasn’t there. Unknown if it was already rerouted for the later flight.
She was supposed to get to the final destination at 4:39pm. The next flight landed at 7:33. She asked about an alternate airport (a little closer to our home, saves about 30 minutes of driving). Will now land at 8:15.
As an EXP I have run through airports and been allowed on planes in similar circumstances. She’s status-less but on a F ticket. This seems like IDB to me. She had checked in, presented herself prior to door closing, and was not drunk (or otherwise unsafe to fly).
I don’t complain much about delays, etc., but this annoys me to no end.
She was supposed to get to the final destination at 4:39pm. The next flight landed at 7:33. She asked about an alternate airport (a little closer to our home, saves about 30 minutes of driving). Will now land at 8:15.
As an EXP I have run through airports and been allowed on planes in similar circumstances. She’s status-less but on a F ticket. This seems like IDB to me. She had checked in, presented herself prior to door closing, and was not drunk (or otherwise unsafe to fly).
I don’t complain much about delays, etc., but this annoys me to no end.
Jan 1, 2019, 2:36 pm
#178
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Clearly not IDB under DOT rules.
It also does not matter whether your wife made it prior to the door closing. The deadline is T-15 before scheduled flight time for domestic; T-30 for international. Once that deadline passes, whether she is boarded is entirely in the GA's discretion.
It also does not matter whether your wife made it prior to the door closing. The deadline is T-15 before scheduled flight time for domestic; T-30 for international. Once that deadline passes, whether she is boarded is entirely in the GA's discretion.
Jan 1, 2019, 3:53 pm
#179
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: DAY
Programs: Marriott Platinum, HHonors Diamond, AA ExPLT
Posts: 116
Clearly not IDB under DOT rules.
It also does not matter whether your wife made it prior to the door closing. The deadline is T-15 before scheduled flight time for domestic; T-30 for international. Once that deadline passes, whether she is boarded is entirely in the GA's discretion.
It also does not matter whether your wife made it prior to the door closing. The deadline is T-15 before scheduled flight time for domestic; T-30 for international. Once that deadline passes, whether she is boarded is entirely in the GA's discretion.