gemac

I think you're right, workandski. It isn't your imagination. The AA forum has gotten much friendlier, to the point where it is a veritable newbie paradise now, and you have certainly put the credit in the right place. It sure is great to see all the newbies happily frolicing around the AA forum. And they come up with such interesting questions - ones we've never seen before here on the AA forum. Why, just this week, we've had this thread and this thread by the same newbie poster, adding so much to Flyertalk. After our friendly encouragement, the same newbie went on to start this thread and this one in the S.P.A.M. forum, this thread and this one in the Travel with Children forum, this one in the mileage run forum, and this one in the Delta forum - all in less than an hour from his first post in the AA forum! If we had not encouraged him in a friendly way, Flyertalkers in our forum and those in all those other forii would not have had the benefit of his wisdom and penetrating questions.

So, see how one good deed just multiplies itself?

Capite

I'm pretty new to posting on this forum (though I have been lurking for a few years), but I am active on many other forums, and anger at newbies by cranky veterans seems to be among the worst here. But on other boards, the vets just tend to completely ignore the newbie posts, and they fall off the front page in half a day. Gone forever! Here I've noticed that there is so much bellyaching about the newbie posts that they go on for six pages.

So why not just ignore the repetitive posts and let them fall away faster?

IceTrojan

You do things your way, we'll do it our way

Really, that's an interesting point. One could argue that while, yes, we could just ignore the noob posts and let them fall away.... our method (assuming the newbie sticks around) will get them to learn and become valuable members of our boards, rather than having them disappear neglected and ignored.

Just a fleeting thought.

Capite

Thanks for your consideration! I don't mean to tell anyone how to run their board, just making suggestions. I am very grateful to this board, and to the veterans who have filled it with unbelieveably useful information. ^ ^ And the mods of course!!

I shouldn't have said that vets do or should ignore the newbs completely. I often see one or two replies -- a vet or semi-vet says "we covered this already...here's the link...the short answer is no you can't take your cello as a carry-on." And *then* it gets completely ignored.

Everyone wins when these "summary" threads are created:

Vets: After only 2-3 posts, the thread still falls off the front page in a few hours, and vets can feel good that they helped someone.

The Newb: the newbie feels slightly embarrased yet grateful to the board for answering the question. Now he/she needn't spend five hours reading through stickies/threads with dozens of pages that endlessly get off topic.

Everyone: There is now a searchable, up-to-date, 3-post thread that gets to the meat of the answer. Everyone who searches for "cello carry-on" can find and understand right away, and if they want in-depth info they can check out the link to the longer thread.

---

Admonishments and insults may have unfortunate side-effects:

1. It increases the number of posts we all have to wade through.

2. It doesn't teach many newbies to use the search engine, since, let's face it, there are always going to be clueless 'noobs' who surf onto a board without reading anything at all and start posting. I doubt abuse can "train" people like that.

3. As to the other newbies who are earnest but feel overwhelmed by the massive amount of information on the board, it might hurt their feelings and make them leave or afraid to post -- even something potentially helpful, since they don't know if they are 'breaking the rules' or not. Who wins then?

gemac

I guess I respectfully disagree.

1. Your method doesn't teach newbies to use the search engine. It teaches them to cluelessly post their questions without any thought or research, reinforcing that behavior with a reward (the answer to their question). Learning theory teaches us that behavior that is rewarded is repeated, behavior that is punished is modified. It also teaches any newbie who does do a little reading before asking first that they needn't be doing that reading, they should just fire off the question.

2. Telling the newbie ""we covered this already...here's the link.." is walking a fine line. Be too subtle, and the clueless newbie, who is by definition clueless, doesn't get the point. Be more pointed and your response will be considered abusive by some, can get you reported, as it implies that the newbie should have searched, therefore is not friendly and welcoming. Remember that different people have different ideas of what is abusive, and we seem to be going with the definition that if anybody considers it abusive, it is. You think it is a problem if a newbie is afraid to post, but nobody seems to consider it a problem if a veteran is afraid to post.

3. Even though this does create a new searchable thread with the answer to the cello question, there are already a hundred searchable threads with that answer, so having a new one doesn't really add anything. The answer doesn't change, but the newbie doesn't search.

4. The newbie doesn't feel "slightly embarrased yet grateful to the board for answering the question". The newbie, having been rewarded with the answer to their question, goes on to start 10 more threads with a similar amount of research behind them. Read through the ones in the example I cited. The newbie got the answer to his question in the first thread, after three replies. It was pointed out that this question had been asked and answered many times before. You can see how embarrassed he was. You are giving the newbie credit for far more subtlety than they normally have.

5. As to the other newbies who are earnest but feel overwhelmed by the massive amount of information on the board, it doesn't hurt their feelings if someone else gets called out for making a silly post without researching, it makes them understand that they should do some research before posting their question. If any newbie starts a thread asking for guidance in doing their research, in my experience they always get a lot of respectful, helpful replies. In the course of that research, they will not only learn the answer to their question, they will discover at least 10 things that they had not even thought to ask that they will use all the time and will be incredibly helpful, and they will have learned how to use the board to research the answers to their future questions. They will be well on their way to becoming a contributing member (as opposed to one who takes, but never gives back). On the other hand, if they are taught that the model here is "Ask a question, get an answer", then that is the model they will follow.

Capite

OK well that's cool. By the way, I have been helped out by many of your own posts, thanks.

brp

This is a really good analysis. If we do start a newbie FAQ, and the idea has been suggested, this should be at the head of the thread, indicating why such a thread exists and what it hopes to achieve. Instead of "we should just be nice to everyone", or "we should just crap on everyone", this one has some real substance. Kudos to the kinder, gentler gemac for a thoughtful and realistic post.

Cheers.

f9999

You both make good points. The problem with this approach though is you can't teach a newbie anything for their first post no matter how many jedi powers you employ. There will always be people who wander in and post before learning anything. You could teach 1,000,000 of them and there would be more, it's the internet, there's always a new user.

I don't understand why there's this overwhelming need to teach people things BUT there's no overwhelming desire to actually post a succinct and straightforward FAQ in a place where someone might read it. How about a sticky that says "Welcome to the AA forum, read this first..." and then had some things like:

1) Most questions have been answered many times, you should always do a search first. Read below for some common abbreviations we use here.

2) Most questions revolve around a few major things, like how to get an upgrade, how to do a challenge, etc. Here are links to the best threads on these topics.

... and so on.

I totally agree with you -- but that said I think it's absurd to expect someone to click on the stickies up there with 400 responses and no basic jargon free english "Here's what the deal is..." language at the beginning. It's been mentioned a million times, it's still true. I shouldn't gripe, I should just make such a FAQ myself, though I'm not sure if I'm qualified enough, but regardless, we need one.

So with all that said, I think the constant berating and scolding of posters for almost any reason (newbie, difference of opinion, etc) is just a total black mark on the forum. The number of "posts about posts" here is *breathtaking* in its ubiquity. Seriously, though I and many are recent posters here most have plenty of experience posting on forums in general, we know of what we speak. This forum is way off the spectrum.

Here's a concept -- posting an admonishment is just as useless as posting a stupid question. They don't help anyone or anything, at all. The claim is that they "teach" people, but they don't. Everyone's a newbie once, there's always another one.

But if we agree to disagree on that, and think there IS a value in posting the first scolding reply to a "stupid" question, can we all agree that there is NO value at all to posting the second or third scolding comment in that thread? Literally none. And frankly, I think there are *more* "posts about posts" than there are off-topic or dumb questions. I think if we banned all scolding, etc, the signal to noise ratio would go up dramatically.

Just my opinion of course, and don't mean to step on any toes. But it's unbelievable how over-wrought these discussions get. If everyone (Iand I mean everyone) thought first about how much value a post added, and decided to skip it if there was no value, we'd be better off. That goes for newbies, but it also goes for people posting the 12th "do a search" comment in the same thread. It's mindless, and common. Glass houses, stones, etc.

Just my opinion, nothing more.

gemac

No problem. Glad to have been of help. BTW, I looked back through your early posts. Cogent and well-thought-out, and contributing to help others as well as asking your own, good questions. You are the kind of newbie that everyone here on Flyertalk likes to see, and we could use more of. Since you started before the new, gentler regime, obviously you weren't intimidated by the old way of doing things to the point where you were paralysed and couldn't get your first post out. I just doubt that others like you would be that intimidated either. I think they would do what you did, and that would make for a better Flyertalk.

gemac

1. I think a FAQ is a good idea. It has been proposed before but not implemented. It would have to be a locked stickie, to keep it from becoming unwieldy. But it still wouldn't address the problem at hand, because often the question that the newbie posts is the sole topic of (and answered in) another post that is on the front page at the time the newbie starts another thread to ask it again. These newbies don't read anything on the forum before launching their thread.

I also think that it should be SOP here that only locked stickies have any degree of permanence. An unlocked stickie should be limited term, say 3 months. A locked stickie should contain instructions to PM the individual who maintains it if you have anything to add to it, and they could edit that into the existing body if they felt that it was warranted. If they grow tired of maintaining it, they could solicit volunteers to take it over.

In an effort to be helpful, I will agree to start the FAQ if it can be done on the basis indicated above, as a locked FAQ. To get it off the ground, I will use (at least some of) the questions in this thread, but with kinder, gentler answers. How about it, mods?

2. While we are both generalizing, I would agree that there can be some piling on, but I think it generally happens when someone suggests a search, and the newbie responds with either the obviously false defensive statement that they did a search but couldn't find anything, or responds with an ad hominem attack on one of our valued senior contributors. If the newbie just slinks off, I don't remember seeing a lot of people beating dead horses. The possible exception is when someone posts something as fact when it is clearly untrue. If only one person responds, the uninformed won't really know who to believe, so many people chime in, and sometimes posters are upset that someone tries to mislead the world, and it shows in their posts.

3. I agree totally that making a personal attack on someone just because they have a different opinion than you do is unreasonable, particularly if their opinion appears to have some thought behind it. Some opinions are just somebody letting their mouth get way ahead of their mind, and it is difficult not to take a gently mocking tone in response.

4. I am not holding up the past as nirvana. Everything could use improvement. I do think that we have recently made Flyertalk worse instead of better, that the pendulum has swung farther to the polite extreme than it ever was to the rude extreme. I am trying, in my own way, to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Thanks for expressing your thoughts on this matter.

f9999

Thanks for the thoughtful reply to the reply!

-F9 (testing that kinder gentler thing too )


And PS - though that humorous FAQ is a big joke, it's actually pretty damm informative. It doesn't have to be straight-laced to be helpful, maybe a cleaned up version could be a good start to the little project.

gemac

Good idea. Maybe if it gets a green light, I would include the humorous answers (clearly labeled as such) as well as the real answers. I think everyone can appreciate humor, and it often helps the real answers to stick in our minds.

ejm

As a relative newcomer I agree that a clearly posted READ ME FIRST that was limited to the very common questions would be very helpful to get oriented - I think lurked for a while before I posted anything but sometimes people cannot wait to have a question answered.

A suggestion - it might be good to link to posts that you(we?) think are particularly enlightening (perhaps both good and bad examples) so that the newcomers can actually get some practice navigating the site as appropriate.

Happy to help in some way if that is useful to this effort

gemac

I agree that it might be helpful, but I don't think it would be a panacea. There has been a clearly posted READ ME FIRST in the Hotel Deals since its inception. About every third thread was started to ask questions that clearly did not belong in that forum, according to the READ ME thread. The title was changed to READ ME BEFORE POSTING. Now the incidence of inappropriate threads is about 25%. There is nothing that will get the attention of some people other than a two-by-four across the mouth, and we would prefer not to do that here on Flyertalk.

LoneStarMike

A couple of people have mentioned that some newbies might feel overwhelmed by the massive amount of information they have to go through to find the answer to their question.

If the AA board does create a FAQ, you might consider using the same format as the Southwest Airlines FAQ maintained by nsx

The first post in the thread is just a list of the 42 individual questions that are answered within the thread. Each question is posted as an individual hyperlink.

Newbies scroll through the first post on the thread until they come to the question they are looking for, then they click on that question and are taken to the individual post within the thread that answers that specific question.

Additional questions can be added as needed to the list on the first post of the thread with the answer as individual posts at the end of the thread. If the newbie's question isn't listed in the first post, then he or she knows there's no point in reading the entire thread.

I love this format because it cuts down the amount of time a newbie has to spend reading/searching for an answer to his/her specific question.

Just a suggestion.

Mike