Policy on AA for Removing me from Flight (30 Minutes)
Jul 29, 2004, 9:15 am
#61
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dallas
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Posts: 4,092
[QUOTE=MVANHOU]
I think at this point, your case is stronger than you suggest.
Employee conduct at the airport as well as the correspondence you have received suggest that one or both of two things are true:
1) employees are not being properly trained on AA's legal obligations to pax (reviewing the history of this thread, it seems like no one you've been in contact with may even be aware of what the "Contract of Carriage" is, or why it is important; and/or
2) they are being told to ignore it.
I suspect the first is true.... for whatever reason, AA is not properly educating employees on the terms & conditions of the Contract of Carriage. With a normal company, this might not be a problem... but (as you've found out), some of AA's front-line customer contact people can be incredibly arrogant and have a tendency to assume that the customers are of substandard intelligence and couldn't possibly know more than they do. Even though any of the people you talked to could easily access the relevant language in the contract of carriage in less than 10 seconds, they simply refuse to even consider the possiblity that you might be on to something.
In any case, arrogance is probably more forgivable than management-sanctioned customer deception.
Whatever the case, AA needs to honor their legal obligations. If they find the 15 minute rule inconvenient, they can always change it with proper notice to customers (and by amending the filings they've made with the DOT).
Originally Posted by Plato90s
So my word against their word is what it ultimately comes down to.
Employee conduct at the airport as well as the correspondence you have received suggest that one or both of two things are true:
1) employees are not being properly trained on AA's legal obligations to pax (reviewing the history of this thread, it seems like no one you've been in contact with may even be aware of what the "Contract of Carriage" is, or why it is important; and/or
2) they are being told to ignore it.
I suspect the first is true.... for whatever reason, AA is not properly educating employees on the terms & conditions of the Contract of Carriage. With a normal company, this might not be a problem... but (as you've found out), some of AA's front-line customer contact people can be incredibly arrogant and have a tendency to assume that the customers are of substandard intelligence and couldn't possibly know more than they do. Even though any of the people you talked to could easily access the relevant language in the contract of carriage in less than 10 seconds, they simply refuse to even consider the possiblity that you might be on to something.
In any case, arrogance is probably more forgivable than management-sanctioned customer deception.
Whatever the case, AA needs to honor their legal obligations. If they find the 15 minute rule inconvenient, they can always change it with proper notice to customers (and by amending the filings they've made with the DOT).
Aug 8, 2004, 11:21 pm
#62
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,731
Does nobody know?
I almost ran into this problem again. Paid first class ticket, seat given to upgrader at 26 minutes before departure, got put on standby for coach, finally got the seat of somebody that was checked in but didn't show up. Probably an internet check-in person.
BUT, what would be compensation if this happens? The agent seemed to suggest that I just get to sit in coach, no compensation whatsoever. Wouldn't that be an IDB?
BUT, what would be compensation if this happens? The agent seemed to suggest that I just get to sit in coach, no compensation whatsoever. Wouldn't that be an IDB?
Originally Posted by f4free
If you are on a paid first class ticket, and you get to the gate at 20 minutes prior to check-in, and they gave your seat away to an upgrader and are only able to assign you coach, is that an IDB-case? Or is it an "IDG" (involuntary downgrade) 
?
What compensation would one get? IDB compensation? Or the (possibly minimal) fare difference?
? What compensation would one get? IDB compensation? Or the (possibly minimal) fare difference?
Aug 9, 2004, 1:07 am
#63
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,803
"BUT, what would be compensation if this happens? The agent seemed to suggest that I just get to sit in coach, no compensation whatsoever. Wouldn't that be an IDB?"
it would be an involuntary downgrade, you haven't been denied boarding. You would be entitled to the difference between the First Class fare and the Economy Class fare. Depending on the fare basis, the rules may specify precisely how to calculate the involuntary downgrade compensation.
Dave
it would be an involuntary downgrade, you haven't been denied boarding. You would be entitled to the difference between the First Class fare and the Economy Class fare. Depending on the fare basis, the rules may specify precisely how to calculate the involuntary downgrade compensation.
Dave
Aug 9, 2004, 7:07 am
#64
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,731
What coach fare would they use to compute the difference when using a YUP-fare?
Aug 9, 2004, 8:05 am
#65
Original Member
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Nothing on Y-Up?
I look for anyone else to offer a better answer. I haven't yet actually lost a Y-UP seat. But, I *think* the answer is "nothing." The Y-UP fare allows for upgrade "if available." Now, we all understand (and would agree) that the only reason you paid that higher fare was because you were able to confirm an F seat on the particular flight you booked. But since the fare doesn't automatically include an F seat, they might argue that you get nothing for the IDG (just like if you changed to a different flight with no F seat available).
Aug 9, 2004, 7:04 pm
#66
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,731
However, they book right into A, resp. I on YCUP-fares on transcons.
Aug 9, 2004, 11:19 pm
#67
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
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I have just begun to follow this thread today and I find it fascinating. I am usually not on the side of someone seeking compensation, as it seems that there are more people just "out to get something", usually for nothing. I have read a lot of "my flight was delayed....am I entitled to compensation?" threads. I think part of the problem is that there are always so many people looking to be compensated for things that warrant no compensation, that when a real beef comes up, you run into a brick wall. Assuming everything the OP says is true (and we have no reason to believe that he is not truthful), it sure sounds to me like s/he should be entitled to IDB compensation.
It also sounds like these are the types of things I will need to watch for as a new AA flyer. To date, I have zero paid miles with AA (I have flown as a companion for someone else on AA and have been quite impressed with their service, especially how well they take care of their elites), but I will be completing the PLAT challenge in the next month and a half or so. I am used to flying whoever had the best fare/routing, which was often WN for me. The one thing I can be reasonably sure of is that if this situation had happened on a WN flight, there never would have been an issue. The OP would have boarded his original flight, with nothing more than a "you really should get here a little earlier next time -- now move your A$$ to the gate or your plane will leave with out you!!!" from the counter agent. Chances are they also would have checked a bag, if it was necessary, and given cheerful customer service MOST of the time.
I look forward to working with AA in the coming months, but I will likely miss the level of customer commitment usually put forth by the folks at WN.
Stevekoe
It also sounds like these are the types of things I will need to watch for as a new AA flyer. To date, I have zero paid miles with AA (I have flown as a companion for someone else on AA and have been quite impressed with their service, especially how well they take care of their elites), but I will be completing the PLAT challenge in the next month and a half or so. I am used to flying whoever had the best fare/routing, which was often WN for me. The one thing I can be reasonably sure of is that if this situation had happened on a WN flight, there never would have been an issue. The OP would have boarded his original flight, with nothing more than a "you really should get here a little earlier next time -- now move your A$$ to the gate or your plane will leave with out you!!!" from the counter agent. Chances are they also would have checked a bag, if it was necessary, and given cheerful customer service MOST of the time.
I look forward to working with AA in the coming months, but I will likely miss the level of customer commitment usually put forth by the folks at WN.
Stevekoe
Aug 20, 2004, 1:44 pm
#69
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 7,419
Originally Posted by Plato90s
The agents were wrong. The 30 minute rule only applies to assigned seats. That means if you had a specific seat, like a bulkhead or exit row, and you didn't check-in at least 30 minutes prior to departure, the seat assignment will be given away.
However, your "seat" on the flight can't be given away as long as you both check-in and be at the gate area at least 15 minutes prior to departure. If the OP was speaking with the gate agent at 21 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time, then he should have been allowed to board.
I would contact AA, give them the timeline as you've stated it here, and append these specific parts of the condition of carriage.
The relevant parts are highlighted.
However, your "seat" on the flight can't be given away as long as you both check-in and be at the gate area at least 15 minutes prior to departure. If the OP was speaking with the gate agent at 21 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time, then he should have been allowed to board.
I would contact AA, give them the timeline as you've stated it here, and append these specific parts of the condition of carriage.
The relevant parts are highlighted.
Does anybody have an idea how to "proof" the timeline. Should we ask for the name of the agent, get the time of refusal in writing ...?
Aug 20, 2004, 2:33 pm
#70
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SFO, mostly
Posts: 2,206
Question
What if the flight is delayed? For example, knowing in advance that a flight is delayed 2 hours, do I still have to check-in 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure or risk losing my seat? Can I web check-in several hours in advance and then show up at the airport after scheduled departure and still check my bag?
Aug 24, 2004, 1:47 pm
#71
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CH, D, USA
Posts: 1,731
I asked a gate-agent in DFW that seemed to be very experienced.
If you are booked on a revenue first class ticket (F or A-fare), the gate agent should never, never ever release your reservation prior to 15 minutes before departure, regardless of wether you are checked in or not. They can reassign another seat, but have to keep one seat available for you up to the last of the 15 minutes.
If it does happen, you are entitled to compensation. He wasn't sure on wether it would be IDB or a downgrade, and on how the downgrade would work. Now, on a Y-UP fare booked into A, he didn't know. He said probably nothing, but did acknowledge that it was really sold as first class and booked directly into A, not an upgrade inventory.
That part would interest me highly, though.
Does anybody know the answer?
If you are booked on a revenue first class ticket (F or A-fare), the gate agent should never, never ever release your reservation prior to 15 minutes before departure, regardless of wether you are checked in or not. They can reassign another seat, but have to keep one seat available for you up to the last of the 15 minutes.
If it does happen, you are entitled to compensation. He wasn't sure on wether it would be IDB or a downgrade, and on how the downgrade would work. Now, on a Y-UP fare booked into A, he didn't know. He said probably nothing, but did acknowledge that it was really sold as first class and booked directly into A, not an upgrade inventory.
That part would interest me highly, though.
Does anybody know the answer?
Aug 24, 2004, 2:01 pm
#72
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 63,716
Originally Posted by f4free
If it does happen, you are entitled to compensation. He wasn't sure on wether it would be IDB or a downgrade, and on how the downgrade would work. Now, on a Y-UP fare booked into A, he didn't know. He said probably nothing, but did acknowledge that it was really sold as first class and booked directly into A, not an upgrade inventory.
That part would interest me highly, though.
Does anybody know the answer?
That part would interest me highly, though.
Does anybody know the answer?
Aug 25, 2004, 10:31 am
#73
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington, DC
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Posts: 3,229
I wonder what the final outcome of this was for the OP?
Aug 25, 2004, 11:51 am
#74
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Originally Posted by sltlyamusd
What if the flight is delayed? For example, knowing in advance that a flight is delayed 2 hours, do I still have to check-in 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure or risk losing my seat? Can I web check-in several hours in advance and then show up at the airport after scheduled departure and still check my bag?
The practical reality is on-line checkin for that situation...
Sep 30, 2004, 9:38 pm
#75
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dallas
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Any updates on final outcome?