View Poll Results: My opinion of the announced AA - US merger is:
This is the best of all possible worlds; great idea!
33
3.93%
This portends a stronger airline, with some changes for all
192
22.88%
I am neutral - pros and cons for all
199
23.72%
I think this is a somewhat bad idea with some real challenges
226
26.94%
I am completely opposed to this merger; terrible idea!
189
22.53%
Voters: 839. You may not vote on this poll
AA - US Merger Agreement / Announcement / DOJ Action Discussion (consolidated)
#2206
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
An interesting op-ed from the Texas attorney general (home of AA's HQ and DFW hub) at http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/la...ays-merger.ece. He has some pretty strong words:
We believe that actions by the airlines and their officials violate antitrust laws. In fact, the legal violations appear so overt that it would offend my oath of office not to take action.
#2207
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
An interesting op-ed from the Texas attorney general (home of AA's HQ and DFW hub) at http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/la...ays-merger.ece. He has some pretty strong words:
How unusual that each side says it has the better case
#2208
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
I don't believe that any of the 2011 re-fleeting orders will be scaled back, even if the merger is 86'd. The orders were ratified prior to the merger, and are predicated on a stand-alone AA with financing in place for the first 230-some odd single-aisle planes.
Stand-alone AA won't be required to implement the Parker Promises of wage and benefit improvements if AA remains independent. If AA management is smart, it will offer employees a restoration of at least 15% first dollar profit-sharing without demanding anything from the employees, and perhaps 20% to 25% would be better (maybe offset by small, minor changes to the contracts).
Unless there's a shock to the industry, AA won't be asking for further paycuts in this bankruptcy case.
US, on the other hand, may see its labor costs escalate if its pilots get together and recognize that they need to fight Parker and not each other.
Now AA is in a tricky spot because if the merger doesn't go through, I believe there is a big
Those who have more experience with bk stuff can probably provide some direction here.
The outcomes on labor could be:
1) AA/US merge - no change
2) AA alone - stuck with merger labor concessions
3) AA alone - revert back to agreed upon contracts for stand-alone plan
4) AA alone - need to negotiate something different
Those who have more experience with bk stuff can probably provide some direction here.
The outcomes on labor could be:
1) AA/US merge - no change
2) AA alone - stuck with merger labor concessions
3) AA alone - revert back to agreed upon contracts for stand-alone plan
4) AA alone - need to negotiate something different
So R415 didn't mean that AA's costs would be lower than US. AA's stand alone negotiated costs were closer to US's current costs in the original contracts. With AA/US the costs would be higher than the AA standalone negotiated costs.
Costs from High to Low:
AA (Pre-BK)
AA/US
AA Standalone
US (Current)
Costs from High to Low:
AA (Pre-BK)
AA/US
AA Standalone
US (Current)
AA's bankruptcy labor costs will be slightly lower (IMO) than Delta and a lot lower than COdbaUA.
It's practically a certainty that the labor costs at US will increase once its pilots call off their standoff and get together and demand industry-average wages. Nobody knows when (or if) that will happen, but I'm betting it won't take too long.
#2209
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
The Arizona attorney general (home of US' HQ and PHX hub) did an op-ed too, which is at http://www.azcentral.com/opinions/ar...ase-horne.html
this merger would result in four airlines dominating 87 percent of the domestic market, and it would inevitably result in higher fares and lesser service. More routes would be monopolized by just one carrier.
#2210
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
Seeing the profit-sharing restored would be ^
#2211
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: AA EXP; UA 1k; MR Platinum; SPG Gold
Posts: 167
I agree that if the DOJ stands firm on its position (doesn't fold like a cheap suit in exchange for some minor concessions by Parker), then the court will grant its requested injunction. I cannot envision any realistic scenario by which the deal is approved and AA-US gets to keep what it needs to be a dominant carrier.
I don't believe that any of the 2011 re-fleeting orders will be scaled back, even if the merger is 86'd. The orders were ratified prior to the merger, and are predicated on a stand-alone AA with financing in place for the first 230-some odd single-aisle planes.
Agreed. A stand-alone AA will keep the current orders.
I don't believe that any of the 2011 re-fleeting orders will be scaled back, even if the merger is 86'd. The orders were ratified prior to the merger, and are predicated on a stand-alone AA with financing in place for the first 230-some odd single-aisle planes.
Agreed. A stand-alone AA will keep the current orders.
The original labor negotiations gained significant ground to facilitate AA being able to develop regional flying (which should result in good news for mainline because it will provide feed that AA didn't have the advantage of before).
AA's bankruptcy labor costs will be slightly lower (IMO) than Delta and a lot lower than COdbaUA.
It's practically a certainty that the labor costs at US will increase once its pilots call off their standoff and get together and demand industry-average wages. Nobody knows when (or if) that will happen, but I'm betting it won't take too long.
It's practically a certainty that the labor costs at US will increase once its pilots call off their standoff and get together and demand industry-average wages. Nobody knows when (or if) that will happen, but I'm betting it won't take too long.
The US labor cost issue is frequently ignored. US is a solid operation and certainly makes a good amount of money, but the pile of cash left at the end of the day is going to shrink as soon as their labor costs become more inline with the rest of the industry.
#2212
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
I don't know if there is any fare data that shows US is keeping fares down in trans-Atlantic markets the way they are in domestic markets, which would be the concern from an antitrust point of view. My guess is that US doesn't have much influence on LHR fares, and putting it in the oneworld joint venture might make them a stronger counterweight to *A and ST on routes to continental Europe; this might be the case where combining competitors really does increase competition.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...er%20Yield.htm
My guess is that like all airlines, there are routes where they are strong and routes where they aren't; on balance, US just isn't getting the high fares on TATL routes.
As pointed out above, US and AA/BA/IB compete on many TATL city pairs, not just to London and not just to FRA, as both airlines sell many nonstops and connecting flights between the USA and Europe.
#2213
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
Had never seen the actual figures, and they're scarier than the words describing the ruinous search for the bottom-of-the-commoditization strategy. Just imagine AA's profitability if it commanded a 10-12% premium vs. a 3% discount (that translate into 13-15% increase in revenues, with maybe a small increase in costs to offer the product that the premium commands).
#2214
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP/1MM. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 22,307
An interesting op-ed from the Texas attorney general (home of AA's HQ and DFW hub) at http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/la...ays-merger.ece. He has some pretty strong words:
#2215
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
Sorry for the little detour but the data fascinated me.
This is probably the most relevant picture (the one above was just Atlantic) of the "Arpey effect":
Just a note, this depicts the relative stage-adjusted premium/discount over the other legacies. It looks like it went in freefall starting from 2005 and it's a straight line to 2011, with an upward blip in 2009.
This is probably the most relevant picture (the one above was just Atlantic) of the "Arpey effect":
Just a note, this depicts the relative stage-adjusted premium/discount over the other legacies. It looks like it went in freefall starting from 2005 and it's a straight line to 2011, with an upward blip in 2009.
#2216
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
There is fare data that tends to show that among the US airlines, US Airways commands the lowest average fares per revenue passenger mile (yield) across the Atlantic, and has occupied that spot pretty much since at least 1995:
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...er%20Yield.htm
My guess is that like all airlines, there are routes where they are strong and routes where they aren't; on balance, US just isn't getting the high fares on TATL routes.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...er%20Yield.htm
My guess is that like all airlines, there are routes where they are strong and routes where they aren't; on balance, US just isn't getting the high fares on TATL routes.
#2217
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PHL
Posts: 2,842
US flies to all of the major EU cities, they just don't serve them with as much frequency as the other majors
#2218
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
Holly Hegeman's rant in support of the merger
Today, Holly Hegeman, of PlaneBusinessBanter, posted a tirade on her subscription-only website ($197 a year) in which she railed about the DOJ's anti-competitive position on the US-AA merger. While there were many items in the long-winded piece with which I disagreed, there was one repetitive error in her column:
20% a year growth? Uhh, no. The stand-alone plan was 20% over five years, which works out to 3.7% growth per year.
http://hub.aa.com/en/nr/pressrelease...ity-and-growth
She repeats the error later in the column, so it's not as though the first instance is a typo:
Is math really that hard? 20% a year? That's quite a strawman, Holly.
Another particularly clueless portion is this:
Uhh, by time AA was ready to begin preparing its stand-alone Plan of Reorganization, Parker had already sold the UCC and the employees on his merger plan, so there was no opportunity to prepare a stand-alone POR and solicit votes.
If the merger is off, then the stand-alone plan is the only option other than liquidation, and only the under-13 year old crowd (who shouldn't be posting) believes that's a serious alternative at this point.
Originally Posted by Holly Hegeman
What really blew me away was the mention of AMR's original plan to grow. Yes, remember that? That nonsense about how AMR was going to grow by 20% a year that was included in its original "stand alone" plan. The plan that not one Wall Street analyst agreed was doable -- but a plan which most did agree would amount to a destabilizing threat to the economic health of the industry if it were attempted. It was stand alone all right. AMR was standing there alone, the only entity on the planet that maintained it was legitimate.
Building network scale and alliances by increasing capacity across American's five key markets – Dallas/Fort Worth, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles and New York – by 20 percent over the next five years, and by increasing international flying.
She repeats the error later in the column, so it's not as though the first instance is a typo:
Originally Posted by Holly Hegeman
Several points I think are crucially important to make here. First and foremost, this is not going to be like the Michael Jackson "Thriller" video where the zombies start shuffling back out of Centreport and we all go back to the ridiculous notion that an AMR "stand-alone" plan with 20% growth a year is remotely possible.
Another particularly clueless portion is this:
Originally Posted by Holly Hegeman
Which reminds me. Does anyone at the DOJ even understand that there is no "Plan B?" There is no more "stand alone" plan. Employees at American Airlines are not going back to work for Tom Horton. Tom Horton is onboard with the merger.
There is nothing to go back to. Period.
The proof of the fallacy of the legitimacy of the "stand alone" plan is the fact that American Airlines management never presented any form of a stand-alone plan to the bankruptcy court or the creditors committee. If executives at AMR had felt like the plan had legs, don't you think they would have at least made a run at it? Never happened.
There is nothing to go back to. Period.
The proof of the fallacy of the legitimacy of the "stand alone" plan is the fact that American Airlines management never presented any form of a stand-alone plan to the bankruptcy court or the creditors committee. If executives at AMR had felt like the plan had legs, don't you think they would have at least made a run at it? Never happened.
If the merger is off, then the stand-alone plan is the only option other than liquidation, and only the under-13 year old crowd (who shouldn't be posting) believes that's a serious alternative at this point.
#2219
Moderator: Alaska Mileage Plan
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,318
"[That] guy" is a poster child for a lot of things, none of them good. Even some of not-too-crazy Republicans are mad at him. It is amazing that he is so anti-AA. Maybe he hates the Susan G. Komen planes.
#2220
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: AUS / DXB
Programs: BA Silver | AA LT Gold | EY Silver | Marriott LT Titanium
Posts: 1,838
And oddly enough, for the first time in my life, I find myself agreeing with Greg Abbott.