Dedicated thread for RESPECTFUL discussions of AA labor contract issues (2012)
Sep 24, 2012, 1:13 pm
#166
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
Curioius that you use the term "various labor groups" when all workgroups except the pilots have already signed their concessionary agreements and did not have their contracts abrogated.
And thus far, there's no evidence of any work action by the FAs or the fleet service employees or the mechanics. Just the pilots.
That leads me to believe that you haven't been keeping up with the news.
And thus far, there's no evidence of any work action by the FAs or the fleet service employees or the mechanics. Just the pilots.
That leads me to believe that you haven't been keeping up with the news.
Sep 24, 2012, 1:42 pm
#167
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: LAX
Posts: 3,267
If you're smart, you fulfill your obligations to the fullest extent of the contract or other governing regulations--and no further. @:-)
Sep 24, 2012, 1:52 pm
#168
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SAN
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, American Air, National Car
Posts: 1,131
This pilot work slowdown is putting pressure on the airline to quickly renegotiate the terms. They'll either get it done, or operate a smaller airline that gets merged, and the management gets buyouts. AA pilots are both significantly increasing the operating costs and reducing revenues from canceled flights and loss of business customers. This situation has a long tail, since AA is handing out miles/vouchers to customers to retain loyalty.
The pilots should calculate how much they want to be under USAir management vs. have a reduced compensation system under AA management.
I don't have an idea of if AA mgmt feels they can afford the current situation for 2 weeks or for months. I'm sure AA finance team, and maybe some large bondholders, have analysts that are running the numbers and sharing calculations on trade-offs, and how much of these short-term costs need to be brought into pilot union negotiations, versus sunk and written-off. Only so much can be written-off.
Overall, AA pilots are a significant stakeholder that will position AA to acquire, or resign the airline to a position where they will be acquired.
The pilots should calculate how much they want to be under USAir management vs. have a reduced compensation system under AA management.
I don't have an idea of if AA mgmt feels they can afford the current situation for 2 weeks or for months. I'm sure AA finance team, and maybe some large bondholders, have analysts that are running the numbers and sharing calculations on trade-offs, and how much of these short-term costs need to be brought into pilot union negotiations, versus sunk and written-off. Only so much can be written-off.
Overall, AA pilots are a significant stakeholder that will position AA to acquire, or resign the airline to a position where they will be acquired.
Sep 24, 2012, 2:24 pm
#169
Join Date: Nov 2009
Programs: AA PLT, 60K "old miles"
Posts: 188
Realistically, the answer is probably "no." The unsecured creditors will probably want a consensual agreement before voting in favor of AA's Plan of Reorganization. Additionally, equity investors (be they TPG and/or IAG or others) will also likely want to see a consensual agreement in place.
Read Tom Maxon DMN.
Sep 24, 2012, 2:51 pm
#170
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Programs: UA Mileage Plus, AA Advantage
Posts: 5,983
I still think the question everyone ought to be asking is who would the various labor groups trust enough to accept the majority of the cost savings / productivity improvements? If they can figure that out, get the new leader in place as soon as possible and get back to business.
Sep 24, 2012, 4:01 pm
#171
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 9
No matter how much everyone explains to the pilots that the cheese in a new location, and it's still pretty good, they are starving for the old cheese and demanding it back. It's like wishing for Unicorns. If this continues, AA looks to be Chapter 7, and then everyone can go find their new cheese on another airline, albeit with a slightly lower rank.
Sep 24, 2012, 4:16 pm
#172
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
No, the point is not who is taking action - the point is ALL the labor groups have to buy into the plan to make it work. Unless it wants to flounder on again and risk going back into Chapter 11 a few years from now, AA needs to concentrate on getting the business right with a solid team pulling in the same direction.
IMO, that makes the pilots the outliers. If all or even a majority of the workgroups had not consented to the concessions, then I'd see some evidence that it's management's job to evaluate why so many workgroups had not bought in.
With everyone except the pilots (and over 2900 of them voted "yes" on the concessions) on board, I don't see management failure as clearly as I see some pilots who are in denial and acting a bit childish.
The pilot vote was 4,600 no to 2,935 yes. By my count, the pilot concessions would have been ratified if 833 or more had voted yes instead of no.
This is no unanimous indictment of or rejection of Tom Horton by the pilots union. It's some disgruntled employees apparently engaged in an illegal work action. To AA's credit, it has held off seeking injunctive relief so far, which makes sense given how explosive that might be. Think some of them are angry now - just wait until AA files the motion for the TRO.
Sep 24, 2012, 4:26 pm
#173
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW-In Plano & CDG-In the 11th
Programs: DL Diamond, AA revenue negative, Bonvoy Titanium +, Avis likes me
Posts: 3,209
I also respectfully disagree with the definition of "smart" and am unable (having worked on commission since 1967 when I got my 1st job) to comprehend-"you fulfill your obligations to the fullest extent of the contract or other governing regulations--and no further."
If I (AA PILOT)am mad at my wife (AA management) because she has/is treating me badly, there is NOTHING POSITIVE to be gained by me yelling and screaming at my golf partners (AA Passengers), who are a truly disinterested 3rd party. And to top it all off, just to really piss her off, I get into bed with my 1st wife (Doug Parker).
Last edited by Dallas49er; Sep 24, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Sep 24, 2012, 4:46 pm
#174
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden + Austin, Tx
Programs: "But, I'm a GLOBALIST guest...."
Posts: 2,848
People generally dont like to make less and have less benefits - so that isnt a surprise that 50% of the pilots dont agree. (isnt that the problem of the entire US government - everyone else things others should tighten their belts but not them?) Good thing about the US is that the pilots are more than capable of turning in their letters of resignation and let their feet do the talking if the pastures are so much greener elsewhere.
Sep 24, 2012, 4:52 pm
#175
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Stockholm, Sweden + Austin, Tx
Programs: "But, I'm a GLOBALIST guest...."
Posts: 2,848
This pilot work slowdown is putting pressure on the airline to quickly renegotiate the terms. They'll either get it done, or operate a smaller airline that gets merged, and the management gets buyouts. AA pilots are both significantly increasing the operating costs and reducing revenues from canceled flights and loss of business customers. This situation has a long tail, since AA is handing out miles/vouchers to customers to retain loyalty.
I wonder if firing a couple pilots who are pulling this stunt would result in the rest of them fall in line quickly.... In any other industry not protected by an overzealous union would this be acceptable. People would be fired on the spot for the types stuff they're pulling.
Sep 24, 2012, 6:24 pm
#176
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Programs: UA Mileage Plus, AA Advantage
Posts: 5,983
Not sure if this has been posted but....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...7bd_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...7bd_story.html
DALLAS — American Airlines officials say they want to resume contract negotiations with pilots, but the union wants a written invitation.
The Allied Pilots Association said late Sunday night that it hasn’t met with management, no talks are scheduled, and no deal is imminent.
The Allied Pilots Association said late Sunday night that it hasn’t met with management, no talks are scheduled, and no deal is imminent.
Sep 24, 2012, 6:44 pm
#177
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
posted on September 24, 2012 18:00
Fellow Pilots,
This afternoon I received a letter from Denise Lynn, American Airlines’ Senior Vice President-People, expressing the desire to re-engage in negotiations with APA. In response, I have scheduled a special meeting of the APA Board of Directors that will begin on Wednesday, Sept. 26 at 1 p.m. Central at APA headquarters to discuss management’s invitation and determine APA’s next steps.
Thank you for your support. We will continue to update you as developments warrant.
In unity,
Keith Wilson
APA President
Fellow Pilots,
This afternoon I received a letter from Denise Lynn, American Airlines’ Senior Vice President-People, expressing the desire to re-engage in negotiations with APA. In response, I have scheduled a special meeting of the APA Board of Directors that will begin on Wednesday, Sept. 26 at 1 p.m. Central at APA headquarters to discuss management’s invitation and determine APA’s next steps.
Thank you for your support. We will continue to update you as developments warrant.
In unity,
Keith Wilson
APA President
Sep 24, 2012, 6:45 pm
#178
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Programs: UA Mileage Plus, AA Advantage
Posts: 5,983
Thanks! Sounds like maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.
Sep 24, 2012, 6:47 pm
#179
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ORF
Posts: 1,740
Edit:Nevermind, FWAA beat me to it.