Mike_Paris

Maybe this is just my personal experience and the points I pay attention to, but it seems that over the past years, the gap between KLM and AirFrance is getting larger and larger - not in the favor of KLM.

KLM seems to have changed its in-flight catering in European Business Class, and the food is, in my view, getting worse and worse. The same applies to the food served in the KLM Lounge in Amsterdam. It was never very good, but now it becomes essentially not eatable anymore. Also, I had several flights this year where the luggage bins in the first row were filled up with KLM Crew Luggage making them unusable. On the other hand, AirFrance has updated their Lounges in CGD which are excellent with multiple food choices all over the day. In flight catering is still very good, maybe even better than before. Staff is much more friendly. Overall it feels that AF is moving more upscale while KLM is going on a downward spiral.

Is it just me or do other people have the same impression?

fifty_two

they are two different companies with two different strategies and situations

Both are going into a downward spiral on their own way , just you havent noticed it yet, ask AF or KL veterans here and they can tell you a more about it

maalloc

I concur.

In the grand scheme of things, there's a global race to the bottom.
5-10 years ago I was favouring KL over AF as much as possible. EU short haul, KL lounges were miles ahead of the CDG 2F messes. Long-haul, the ample Eco Comfort offering made it possible to envision flying Y for red-eyes. I'd only pick AF for J long-haul where product was vastly superior.

Nowadays, the lounge situation at their respective hub is clearly inverted as you noticed. But at the same time, KL is revamping its J hard product on its 3-class aircrafts. And AF Y F&B offering is just a few "improvements" away from being totally inedible -- and good luck finding an "extra legroom" seat on the new AF Y cabin.

So I'd say the situation is fluid, and it's near-impossible to rate one carrier vs the other. Plus, it's up to you if you prefer average consistency or a bit randomness in your travel experience. Typically, KL crews are mostly surprise-less, while AF crews can range from plain rude to amazing.

mlin32

Like others mentioned, KLM is known for consistency and general efficiency. Not luxury or bling bling, because that's not Dutch. And not too long ago, it was KLM's profits that were compensating for AF's unprofitability within AF/KLM Groupe. And while the salons at AMS leave something to be desired, the relative efficiency of the smaller hub is easier to navigate for non-experienced travellers than the sprawling behemoth that is CDG.

Like almost all airlines, it's a race to the bottom. It's just how they manage to déguise enhance it to various degrees in different classes. I recommend paying cash for a PE ticket on AF next time to see what I mean.

DuyT

Although the Wanders box in KLM’s EBC is pretty bad, let’s not yet pass final judgement that AF’s EBC food is so much better until AF’s new ‘gastronomic’ sandwich box has been taste tested. If the breakfast sandwhiches from AF are a predictor, I probably would opt to bring my own food on EBC feeder flights into long haul J for AF/KL.

Although I agree in general that AF is positioning itself as the high(er) end full service airline, where it looks like KLM is content with being the regular full service. It is very much also in line with Dutch culture where displays of over indulgence are frowned upon. There is nothing wrong with that strategy, but then the prices should also reflect that instead of being the same as AF.

NickB

I don't buy the argument that this is all because the Dutch are a bunch of unsophisticated yokels with the subtlety of a pair of clogs. Sure, you do not expect the level of service of a high-end boutique hotel nor the gastronomy of a Michelin-starred restaurant but, pre-covid, KL used to serve perfectly serviceable meals on board on intra-European J. Nothing to write home about but it did the job. What they now serve is truly awful. Similarly, catering in the Crown lounges was admittedly always fairly poor but we have moved to it reaching the revolting stage. Except in the morning, where I might have the odd pastry, I struggle to find anything that I might want to eat in Crown lounges. In that sense, my experience of intra-European J on KL and of Crown lounges largely mirrors that of Mike_Paris: a pronounced degradation on KL. It is not an issue of not being bling-bling. It is an issue of noticeably degrading the quality of the product.

So let us leave the cliches about the Dutch aside and look at the reality of a product downgrade which has nothing to do with the nationality of the airline.

Over the same time period, I do not have the same impression of AF. IF anything, it seems to me that it has tended to improve and my own feeling overall matches that of Mike_Paris.

TBH, if you are flying on AFKL, I find connecting at CDG easier than at AMS. It always seems to take an eternity to walk from one gate to another in AMS and the removal of travelators has made that worse. Distances in CDG seem to me much shorter, even when changing from E to F or vice-versa. Sure, if you are trying to connect from Air Moldova or Pakistan International Airlines to AF or KL, connecting at CDG is not fun but this is largely irrelevant if you are connecting between AF and KL flights.

NickB

Unless I am mistaken, this is only on domestic flights, is it not (on which it is an improvement)?

Fates

yes, this is only domestic and an improvement over the nothing they served previously.

DuyT

Ah, I didn’t read that press release properly then. Thx for clarifying both of you

Mike_Paris

I have not taken KL J on long-distance since before COVID. I found the new cabins of AF very nice. Does KL plan to do something even better?

Mike_Paris

I agree. It's the misfit of pricing and service that I find unattractive. If KL where consistently cheaper than AF, I think it would be easier to know to expect less.

Mike_Paris

I very much second that. What I got offered today on an LIS-AMS flight in European Business Class was not fit for consumption. And I do not talk about the whole setup of paper box and wooden cutterly that just adds to the awfulness.

Fabo.sk

KLM J especially intra-Europe has been crap for a while now. It's clear from the strategy that KLM is not willing to invest in premium cabins.

OTOH if you are travelling Y, KLM offers a better experience.

atflyer

Let me put in
- Lounges in Paris way above Amsterdam - as almost everyone seems to agree here. Indeed, like one of the posters I sometimes have trouble finding something edible in AMS and Paris is always ok
- KLM Y, particularly short haul - if you have status and can score Economy comfort, for me night and day difference with the short pitch of AF Y. Wine in Y on AF is better - that is, if they serve it (as noted in another tread, wine is gone in Y on various short AF flights).
- Y long haul - I cannot see a lot of difference
- J short haul - not enough experience to know the difference. Had the KLM Wanders box 1-2 times and nothing special indeed.
- J long haul - do not fly often enough to have strong feelings here, but apparently the J seat offer at KLM is more consistent (all lie flat, in the process of ensuring all-ailse access) as of AF (read stories that they still have angled lie flat seats flying around)>

hotturnip

Nobody said that. This kind of hyperbole gets us nowhere. Jesus.