Apr 6, 2020, 7:58 am
Last edit by: seawolf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
COVID-19: refund provided as voucher (for non refundable fares)
Mar 19, 2020 | 8:51 am
#16
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Programs: FB , BA Gold
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It's not to easy for the EU Parliament to change a law and apply it retroactively. Basically, the parliament would need to scrap or rewrite EC261/2004 article 8, which (today) requires the airline to issue a full refund.
If the EU parliament pushes through a retroactive change, you can bet that pax and claim agencies will challenge that at the European Court of Justice.
If the EU parliament pushes through a retroactive change, you can bet that pax and claim agencies will challenge that at the European Court of Justice.
The way I read the Commission notice is that airlines get some relief by clear waiving of the compensation and some leeway on rerouting "at the earliest opportunity".
I have several flights booked on different airlines, so I do hope for refund. I will be happy when I see the money on my credit card.
What will happen to airlines and the rest of the economy is quite unpredictable though.
Mar 19, 2020 | 8:51 am
#17
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *S, LX Sen**, AF Gold
Posts: 779
Just had the situation: AF canceled both flights of my reservation (more than 2 weeks before flight date, so no additional compensation).
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
Mar 19, 2020 | 9:15 am
#18
formerly Sleepy_Sentry
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 632
I have seen other airlines moving to this "voucher only" refund of cancelled flights.
There is little doubt that they have been communicating between themselves. I heard from a rather reliable source that airlines are asking the EU for some relief from EC261.
Currently, or In the near future, airlines are running out of cash and no banks will lend them more money. There are many possible scenarios. Among them:
- Airline honors their T&C until they run out of cash (let's call this bankruptcy as shortcut). Later they will restart in some leaner fashion.
- Airline will get nationalized as is considered by the French State.
- Many other scenarios.
Some very personal comments:
In countries where labor laws are flexible, airlines can adapt a bit better.
France had basically announced that the State would pick the whole tab for the pandemy (salaries, nationalization, etc...). They seem to now realize that it has many adverse effects and that the bill would be gigantic.
Relying on courts to obtain cash refunds is far from assured, even if the contractual terms are clear. The world economy cannot operate without airlines and countries might take emergency measures.
We are entering a WW3 period and nothing is assured.
There is little doubt that they have been communicating between themselves. I heard from a rather reliable source that airlines are asking the EU for some relief from EC261.
Currently, or In the near future, airlines are running out of cash and no banks will lend them more money. There are many possible scenarios. Among them:
- Airline honors their T&C until they run out of cash (let's call this bankruptcy as shortcut). Later they will restart in some leaner fashion.
- Airline will get nationalized as is considered by the French State.
- Many other scenarios.
Some very personal comments:
In countries where labor laws are flexible, airlines can adapt a bit better.
France had basically announced that the State would pick the whole tab for the pandemy (salaries, nationalization, etc...). They seem to now realize that it has many adverse effects and that the bill would be gigantic.
Relying on courts to obtain cash refunds is far from assured, even if the contractual terms are clear. The world economy cannot operate without airlines and countries might take emergency measures.
We are entering a WW3 period and nothing is assured.
Iberia will only offer a voucher for my recently cancelled flight. My guess is they are doing so with tacit approval from regulators.
Mar 19, 2020 | 9:18 am
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,412
The Commission cannot waive anything. It is not within the Commission's discretion. All that the Commission did was to state the obvious, namely that the Coronavirus pandemic constitute an extraordinary circumstance and therefore does not give rise to compensation and second that, if there are no flights, the "earliest opportunity" may be in quite some time in the future.
Mar 19, 2020 | 9:40 am
#20
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,261
Just had the situation: AF canceled both flights of my reservation (more than 2 weeks before flight date, so no additional compensation).
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
The benefit of this process is that it places the shoe on the other foot and assures that you get paid and that obtaining the funds to reimburse you becomes an issue between two matched commercial enterprises, while you have your money.
For what it is worth, card issuers hold back a percentage of revenue to inoculate themselves against just this sort of risk.
But, as with everything these days, getting all of this done may take a lot more time because the issuer's own personnel may not be available. Thus, the sooner you file your claim, the higher you will be on the hierarchy.
Mar 19, 2020 | 10:34 am
#21
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *S, LX Sen**, AF Gold
Posts: 779
Just had the situation: AF canceled both flights of my reservation (more than 2 weeks before flight date, so no additional compensation).
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
I used the online form to ask for refund (even attached the cancellation confirmation of AF), and the email came back:
your flight is not refundable, but we can offer you a voucher. Please confirm this choice.
I wrote back that due to EU rights, I have the right to be refunded if the airline cancels and that they should reimburse me as soon as possible.
Let's see what happens... But I don't like those games, even if their situation is dire...
Mar 19, 2020 | 11:27 am
#22
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
Neither the EU commission, nor national governments can rewrite EC261/2004. Its legislation.
For such kind of legislation the EU Parliament need to pass a new regulation. I doubt that such a new regulation can be applied retroactively - that means that article 8 protections are removed for cases that arose before the passing of a new regulation.
What it boils down to.
Airline will try every trick in the book to push pax for a rebooking or voucher. Most pax do not know the rules and may fall for it.
Only pax who insist, insist, and insist will receive actual cash money.
Airlines have been playing this game with article 7 compensation payments. Now they are starting this game with article 8 refunds.
For such kind of legislation the EU Parliament need to pass a new regulation. I doubt that such a new regulation can be applied retroactively - that means that article 8 protections are removed for cases that arose before the passing of a new regulation.
What it boils down to.
Airline will try every trick in the book to push pax for a rebooking or voucher. Most pax do not know the rules and may fall for it.
Only pax who insist, insist, and insist will receive actual cash money.
Airlines have been playing this game with article 7 compensation payments. Now they are starting this game with article 8 refunds.
Mar 19, 2020 | 11:34 am
#23
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelowna, Canada
Programs: Aeroplan, flying blue, BAEC, FLYING CLUB, MILES & MORE
Posts: 16
I have YYZ-AMS-LBA with KLM today. Got notification that AMS-LBA cancelled. I have already flown outbound. This was to return home. I do not want to take YYZ-AMS either because I need to get to leeds, not amsterdam. The cancellation email say they are unable to reroute due to travel restrictions. I have submitted a claim online. Should I also cancel my YYZ-AMS online coz otherwise I will be deemed a no show?
Mar 19, 2020 | 11:52 am
#24
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: BWI
Programs: Starwood Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 48
We have a May flight to Israel on AF that is only 6 nights, less than the Israeli-mandated 14 day quarantine period. Has anyone had any experience requesting a refund based on the stay being too short in Israel or other countries requiring quarantine for a certain period?
Mar 19, 2020 | 11:53 am
#25
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I have YYZ-AMS-LBA with KLM today. Got notification that AMS-LBA cancelled. I have already flown outbound. This was to return home. I do not want to take YYZ-AMS either because I need to get to leeds, not amsterdam. The cancellation email say they are unable to reroute due to travel restrictions. I have submitted a claim online. Should I also cancel my YYZ-AMS online coz otherwise I will be deemed a no show?
When you cancel, the refund ought to be an option, you ought to elect that and then await the refund. This will be a bit more complex as you have already flown one segment and may find that the refund for the return segment is very little.
Mar 19, 2020 | 12:59 pm
#26
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
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I have YYZ-AMS-LBA with KLM today. Got notification that AMS-LBA cancelled. I have already flown outbound. This was to return home. I do not want to take YYZ-AMS either because I need to get to leeds, not amsterdam. The cancellation email say they are unable to reroute due to travel restrictions. I have submitted a claim online. Should I also cancel my YYZ-AMS online coz otherwise I will be deemed a no show?
Mar 19, 2020 | 1:48 pm
#27
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
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We have a May flight to Israel on AF that is only 6 nights, less than the Israeli-mandated 14 day quarantine period. Has anyone had any experience requesting a refund based on the stay being too short in Israel or other countries requiring quarantine for a certain period?
Mar 20, 2020 | 7:52 am
#28
Join Date: Sep 2011
Programs: Delta DM, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,506
My wife had a Flying Blue award for travel in about 2 weeks (IAD to CDG in J). Last night the flights were cancelled. In the e-mail she got the same "voucher" option:
"If you wish to cancel your trip, including all remaining flights, for all passengers in your reservation, you can immediately collect your voucher worth your ticket amount by clicking on the below link (one voucher per passenger)."
How does this work? Since she'd like to reschedule her trip, can we use the voucher to rebook the same flight on the same route at a later date? Will we have to pay additional miles to do that? If I call in, will I be able to get the miles redeposited in my account and taxes refunded? It was only 110k miles + $500 in taxes, so a voucher to fly the same route without restrictions would be more valuable than a redeposit/refund, but I'm guessing that's not how it works.
"If you wish to cancel your trip, including all remaining flights, for all passengers in your reservation, you can immediately collect your voucher worth your ticket amount by clicking on the below link (one voucher per passenger)."
How does this work? Since she'd like to reschedule her trip, can we use the voucher to rebook the same flight on the same route at a later date? Will we have to pay additional miles to do that? If I call in, will I be able to get the miles redeposited in my account and taxes refunded? It was only 110k miles + $500 in taxes, so a voucher to fly the same route without restrictions would be more valuable than a redeposit/refund, but I'm guessing that's not how it works.
Mar 20, 2020 | 9:05 am
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,687
My wife had a Flying Blue award for travel in about 2 weeks (IAD to CDG in J). Last night the flights were cancelled. In the e-mail she got the same "voucher" option:
"If you wish to cancel your trip, including all remaining flights, for all passengers in your reservation, you can immediately collect your voucher worth your ticket amount by clicking on the below link (one voucher per passenger)."
How does this work? Since she'd like to reschedule her trip, can we use the voucher to rebook the same flight on the same route at a later date? Will we have to pay additional miles to do that? If I call in, will I be able to get the miles redeposited in my account and taxes refunded? It was only 110k miles + $500 in taxes, so a voucher to fly the same route without restrictions would be more valuable than a redeposit/refund, but I'm guessing that's not how it works.
"If you wish to cancel your trip, including all remaining flights, for all passengers in your reservation, you can immediately collect your voucher worth your ticket amount by clicking on the below link (one voucher per passenger)."
How does this work? Since she'd like to reschedule her trip, can we use the voucher to rebook the same flight on the same route at a later date? Will we have to pay additional miles to do that? If I call in, will I be able to get the miles redeposited in my account and taxes refunded? It was only 110k miles + $500 in taxes, so a voucher to fly the same route without restrictions would be more valuable than a redeposit/refund, but I'm guessing that's not how it works.
That said if you need to change dates yes youll have to contact them
Mar 20, 2020 | 9:14 am
#30
Join Date: May 2015
Location: RBA / TBS
Programs: AF Gold / A3 Gold / Accor Gold / Hilton Gold / TP Silver
Posts: 2,830
This is the only option which is relevant
If all options offered by AFKL dont match with your needs then you are allowed to have a full refund (miles + taxes)
forget about the automatic email sent to everyone, as your case is different , as rewards flights are not mentionned there
If all options offered by AFKL dont match with your needs then you are allowed to have a full refund (miles + taxes)
forget about the automatic email sent to everyone, as your case is different , as rewards flights are not mentionned there