May 9, 2019, 3:08 pm
Last edit by: Goldorak
FLYING BLUE ULTIMATE
Main facts
Ultimate is the top status in FB. It may be added to Club 2000 – Skipper status.
While other FB status (Silver/Gold/Platinum) are based on experience points earning (XP), Ultimate status is obtained by Ultimate XP (UXP) earning. UXPs are earned exclusively on AF- and KL-coded (= marketed) flights, whatever the operating airline.
Some examples :
- CDG-JFK AF-marketing, AF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-JFK DL-marketing, AF-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
- AMS-BOS KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- BOS-IND KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- SIN-SYD AF-marketing, QF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-FCO AZ-marketing, AZ-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
XP earned via AFKL Amex cards are not eligible (those are XP and not UXP).
To qualify for Ultimate, it is needed to have 900 UXP over a year. It is similar to the normal XP counter, resetting as soon as the tier is reached. Ultimate is valid for 1 year once granted. Note 03/2023 : the qualification system just changed from 1800 UXP over 2 years to 900 UXP/1 year. Some transitional measures are in place for the current Ultimate members. See here for details about handling of transition period :
https://www.flyingblue.com/fr/landin...m_content=main
Since 03/2023, a rollover of surplus UXP (over 900) is now possible to the next year and only to the next year (example : year 1, the member earns 2000UXP. At the end of year 1, only 900 UXP will be rolled-over to year 2 and the remaining 1100 UXP earned in Y1 will be lost and not be transferred to year 3. If during year 2, the member earned 1000 new (fresh) UXP, 100 will be rolled-over to year 3.
Hard benefits
- All FB Platinum/Club 2000-Skipper benefits
- Access to a Travel Assistant service 24/7. They are reachable by phone or by email. In practice, from 8 pm to 8 am CET, calls are taken by the Platinum line.
- highest priority on waiting list and in case of irrops
- Possibility to register up to 8 persons who can benefit from Sky Priority services and lounge access when traveling with the Ultimate member and on same PNR (lounge access is only in AFKL lounges here).
- one companion Platinum card
- when the Ultimate member is flying P, 2 guests are allowed in CDG P lounge.
- Zone 1 boarding, irrespective of travel class.
- Access to Hertz Platinum status
- four one-class upgrade certificates per membership year, requiring 1 from W to J, or 2 from Y to J. Upgrades are confirmed instantly at the time of booking (via the Travel Assistant). One voucher = one way. Vouchers can also be used by one of the 8 registered friend/family members travelling by themselves. In case of a long-haul flight with a medium-haul connection/feeder (e.g. CDG-AMS-JFK), the medium-haul segment will be upgraded also with still only one voucher used. In case of 2 long-haul flights in connection (e,g. DXB-CDG-JFK), the use of 2 vouchers is required to upgrade the 2 segments. Upgrade vouchers are usable only on AF- or KL-marketing and operating flights and the PNR must contains only the AFKL flights to be upgraded (if the PNR contains other non-AFKL flights, you cannot upgrade even just the AFKL flights).
The upgrade coupons are valid as soon as you reach Ultimate and is valid for 12 months. The vouchers need to be used within the membership year, but can be applied for travel post expiry date.
Rules for eligible booking classes for the upgrade vouchers are described below :
AF flights, long-haul
Premium Eco to Business
Original booking class : A, S, W
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico, including LAX-PPT)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, C
KL flights, long-haul
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, I.
Airline-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
- AF, KL and contract staff at airports have a popup message on their computer screen when checking-in an Ultimate pax or when scanning a BP at the lounge (AFKL lounges only) asking them to be attentive at any special request of the Ultimate pax. See also below for airport-specific soft benefits. There is no known official policy for operational upgrades of Ultimates, but Ultimate members have all reported on FT a higher rate of op-up (but those remain rare !).
- AF and KL cabin crews are instructed to provide extra care and attentions on-board. It can take different forms : special greetings, extra amenities (pillow, oshibori, etc), F&B from the upper class, upgrades on board (Y to J medium haul, W to J or Y to W long haul), earlier and quicker meal service. This is not systematic and is up to the appreciation of the crew. Based on the reports of Ultimate members of this forum, AF crews seems to be more compliant than KL crews with those directives, although there has been several reports in this thread of nice attentions provided by KL crews.- Unlimited downloads (any day) in AF PLAY app.
Other Skyteam airlines do not provide any extra service or attentions to FB Ultimate passengers.
Airport-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
All benefits below should be understood for departure, unless otherwise noted. In addition to what is mentioned below, it has been reported several cases of expedited transfers organised by AFKL staff in case of short/endangered connection at various airports.
Please complete/edit this list as needed.
AFKL HUBS
Amsterdam
- AMS : some reserved tables in the Non-Schengen lounges. Reserved area in the Schengen lounge (need to ask staff at long entrance). Pre-boarding sometimes granted at the gate.
Paris CDG
Paris ORY
EUROPE
Austria
- VIE: no special treatment to report
Croatia
- DBV: no special treatment to report
- SPU: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Czech Republic
- PRG: no special treatment to report. Pre-boarding refused.
Denmark
- CPH: no special treatment to report
France (non-hubs)
- AJA: no special treatment to reportMain facts
Ultimate is the top status in FB. It may be added to Club 2000 – Skipper status.
While other FB status (Silver/Gold/Platinum) are based on experience points earning (XP), Ultimate status is obtained by Ultimate XP (UXP) earning. UXPs are earned exclusively on AF- and KL-coded (= marketed) flights, whatever the operating airline.
Some examples :
- CDG-JFK AF-marketing, AF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-JFK DL-marketing, AF-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
- AMS-BOS KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- BOS-IND KL-marketing, DL-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- SIN-SYD AF-marketing, QF-operating : eligible to UXP earning
- CDG-FCO AZ-marketing, AZ-operating : NON-eligible to UXP earning
XP earned via AFKL Amex cards are not eligible (those are XP and not UXP).
To qualify for Ultimate, it is needed to have 900 UXP over a year. It is similar to the normal XP counter, resetting as soon as the tier is reached. Ultimate is valid for 1 year once granted. Note 03/2023 : the qualification system just changed from 1800 UXP over 2 years to 900 UXP/1 year. Some transitional measures are in place for the current Ultimate members. See here for details about handling of transition period :
https://www.flyingblue.com/fr/landin...m_content=main
Since 03/2023, a rollover of surplus UXP (over 900) is now possible to the next year and only to the next year (example : year 1, the member earns 2000UXP. At the end of year 1, only 900 UXP will be rolled-over to year 2 and the remaining 1100 UXP earned in Y1 will be lost and not be transferred to year 3. If during year 2, the member earned 1000 new (fresh) UXP, 100 will be rolled-over to year 3.
Hard benefits
- All FB Platinum/Club 2000-Skipper benefits
- Access to a Travel Assistant service 24/7. They are reachable by phone or by email. In practice, from 8 pm to 8 am CET, calls are taken by the Platinum line.
- highest priority on waiting list and in case of irrops
- Possibility to register up to 8 persons who can benefit from Sky Priority services and lounge access when traveling with the Ultimate member and on same PNR (lounge access is only in AFKL lounges here).
- one companion Platinum card
- when the Ultimate member is flying P, 2 guests are allowed in CDG P lounge.
- Zone 1 boarding, irrespective of travel class.
- Access to Hertz Platinum status
- four one-class upgrade certificates per membership year, requiring 1 from W to J, or 2 from Y to J. Upgrades are confirmed instantly at the time of booking (via the Travel Assistant). One voucher = one way. Vouchers can also be used by one of the 8 registered friend/family members travelling by themselves. In case of a long-haul flight with a medium-haul connection/feeder (e.g. CDG-AMS-JFK), the medium-haul segment will be upgraded also with still only one voucher used. In case of 2 long-haul flights in connection (e,g. DXB-CDG-JFK), the use of 2 vouchers is required to upgrade the 2 segments. Upgrade vouchers are usable only on AF- or KL-marketing and operating flights and the PNR must contains only the AFKL flights to be upgraded (if the PNR contains other non-AFKL flights, you cannot upgrade even just the AFKL flights).
The upgrade coupons are valid as soon as you reach Ultimate and is valid for 12 months. The vouchers need to be used within the membership year, but can be applied for travel post expiry date.
Rules for eligible booking classes for the upgrade vouchers are described below :
AF flights, long-haul
Premium Eco to Business
Original booking class : A, S, W
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C (it means that if the flight has only J fare available, one cannot upgrade)
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico, including LAX-PPT)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, C
KL flights, long-haul
Eco to Business (all flights, except to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N, R
Upgraded booking class : Z, I, D, C
Eco to Business (flights to/from USA, Canada, Mexico and DEL)
Original booking class : Y, B, M, U, K, H, L, Q, T, N
Upgraded booking class : Z, I.
Airline-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
- AF, KL and contract staff at airports have a popup message on their computer screen when checking-in an Ultimate pax or when scanning a BP at the lounge (AFKL lounges only) asking them to be attentive at any special request of the Ultimate pax. See also below for airport-specific soft benefits. There is no known official policy for operational upgrades of Ultimates, but Ultimate members have all reported on FT a higher rate of op-up (but those remain rare !).
- AF and KL cabin crews are instructed to provide extra care and attentions on-board. It can take different forms : special greetings, extra amenities (pillow, oshibori, etc), F&B from the upper class, upgrades on board (Y to J medium haul, W to J or Y to W long haul), earlier and quicker meal service. This is not systematic and is up to the appreciation of the crew. Based on the reports of Ultimate members of this forum, AF crews seems to be more compliant than KL crews with those directives, although there has been several reports in this thread of nice attentions provided by KL crews.- Unlimited downloads (any day) in AF PLAY app.
Other Skyteam airlines do not provide any extra service or attentions to FB Ultimate passengers.
Airport-specific soft (unpublished) benefits
All benefits below should be understood for departure, unless otherwise noted. In addition to what is mentioned below, it has been reported several cases of expedited transfers organised by AFKL staff in case of short/endangered connection at various airports.
Please complete/edit this list as needed.
AFKL HUBS
Amsterdam
- AMS : some reserved tables in the Non-Schengen lounges. Reserved area in the Schengen lounge (need to ask staff at long entrance). Pre-boarding sometimes granted at the gate.
Paris CDG
- CDG 2E:
- Departure : Escort from check-in to immigration in the morning (super fast track). Reserved space at K/L/M lounges. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate before beginning of general boarding
- Arrival : access to dedicated lane at passport control, all the way to the left, follow the "ULTIMATE" sign.
- Departure : There is a special Ultimate check-in counter in the SkyP zone (on the left of terminal). Reserved room in the lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate before beginning of general boarding. Escort is provided from the counter to security (skipping the line).
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
- Departure : Reserved space in the lounge
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
Paris ORY
- Departure : Reserved space at Schengen and non-Schengen lounges. Pre-boarding upon request at the lounge.
- Arrival : no special treatment to report
EUROPE
Austria
- VIE: no special treatment to report
Croatia
- DBV: no special treatment to report
- SPU: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Czech Republic
- PRG: no special treatment to report. Pre-boarding refused.
Denmark
- CPH: no special treatment to report
France (non-hubs)
- BES: no special treatment to report
- BIQ: no special treatment to report
- BOD: pre-boarding from lounge to plane inconsistently proposed
- CDG: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
- LYS: Escort from lounge to plane when flying from B gates provided upon request . Preboarding with escort to the plane consistently provided.
- MPL: pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane, sometimes proposed (AF agent comes to the contract lounge to meet the Ultimate guest)
- MRS: no special treatment to report
- NCE: Reserved area in Infinity lounge (inconsistently provided : seems to be provided only when lounge crowded). Pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane, sometimes proposed.
- NTE: no special treatment to report
- ORY: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
- PUF: bypass queue at security and pre-boarding provided upon request
- RNS: bypass queue at security and pre-boarding provided upon request
- TLS: Escort from check in to lounge inconsistently provided. Pre-boarding consistently provided
Germany
- BER: no special treatment to report
- DUS: no special treatment to report
- FRA: no special treatment to report
- HAM: no special treatment to report
- HAJ: No special treatment to report.
- MUC: Reserved area in the lounge, escort from lounge to plane with pre-boarding proposed.
- STR: reserved area in the lounge, pre-boarding
Greece
- ATH: no special treatment to report
- HER: no special treatment to report
- JTR: no special treatment to report
Hungary
- BUD: escort through security from check-in to lounge proposed
Ireland
- DUB: no special treatment to report
Italy
- BLQ: escort from check-in to lounge, and through security to plane.
- BRI: no special treatment to report
- CTA: no special treatment to report
- FCO: no special treatment to report
- FLR: no special treatment to report
- LIN: no special treatment to report
- MXP: pre-boarding granted by request
- VCE: escort through security from check-in to lounge, pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane (not always consistently proposed)
- NAP: no special treatment to report
Netherlands
- AMS: see top of the list in "AFKL hubs".
Norway
- OSL: no special treatment to report
- TRF: no special treatment to report
- KRS: no special treatment to report
- SVG: no special treatment to report
Poland
- WAW: no special treatment to report
- KRK: no special treatment to report
- GDN: no special treatment to report
Portugal
- LIS: pre-boarding proposed upon request
Russia
- SVO: no special treatment to report
- LED: no special treatment to report
Spain
- AGP: no special treatment to report
- BCN: no special treatment to report
- MAD: no special treatment to report
- PMI: no special treatment to report
- SVQ: no special treatment to report
- TFS: no special treatment to report
- VLC: no special treatment to report
Sweden
- ARN: no special treatment to report
- GOT: no special treatment to report
Switzerland
- GVA: pre-boarding upon request. Reserved area in the lounge
- ZRH: no special treatment
United Kingdom
- ABZ: no special treatment to report
- EDI: no special treatment to report
- LHR: no special treatment to report
NORTH AMERICA
Canada
- YUL: Escort from check-in to lounge upon request. Reserved area in lounge, pre-boarding with escort from lounge to plane
- YYZ: escort on arrival through immigration, consistently offered. / Escort from check-in to lounge and from lounge to airplane
- YQB: escort from check-in to lounge proposed
- YVR: no special treatment to report
USA
- ATL: no special treatment to report (in connection)
- BOS: escort through security from check-in to lounge, pre-boarding, all consistently provided mostly spontaneously, sometimes upon request. A separate room in the AF lounge is also proposed.
- DTW: no special treatment to report (starting from DTW or in connection)
- IAD: escort through security from check-in to lounge upon request, but inconsistently provided. Reserved area at the lounge.
- IAH: no special treatment to report
- JFK (AF only / terminal 1) : reserved table in the dining area of the lounge (upstairs),
- JFK (KL only / terminal 4) : no special treatments to report.
- LAX: no special treatment to report
- ORD: On arrival, escort through immigration (not consistently provided). On departure, escort through security to lounge and from lounge to plane (pre-boarding)
- MSP: no special treatment to report, except one case of special DL Elite VIP treatment with expedited immigration and Porsche transfer to/from lounge (not a regular benefit to expect)
- SEA: pre-boarding with escort to plane
- SFO: reserved area in lounge
Mexico
- MEX (Terminal 1): escort through security to lounge with access to dedicated space. Ride from lounge to gate. Sometimes escort on arrival
CENTRAL & SOUTH AMERICA
- BOG: no special treatment to report
- LIM: escort to lounge, provided spontaneously
- GIG: Pre-boarding upon request.
- GRU: escort in case of short connection upon request, inconsistently provided; as of 02/2024 pre-boarding offered at check-in and provided by gate-staff (inconsistently provided).
- SCL: as of 03/2024 escort to lounge offered at departure check-in, pick-up from lounge and pre-boarding done
- EZE: escort to lounge with special crew lane for immigration provided spontaneously
ASIA / PACIFIC
- BKK: escort through security from check-in to lounge, upon request but inconsistently proposed. In connection : escort in case of short connection (better to request it before departure).
- BLR: escort from lounge to gate, pre-boarding provided
- BOM : escort from plane to immigration, and from checkin to the lounge
- DEL: as of 01/2024 escort upon arrival; proactive pre-departure call to arrange terminal entry via VIP entrance and escort to gate for pre-boarding (if lounge used, offered to pick up for pre-boarding)
- HKG: no special treatment to report.
- HND: Arrival : new 09/2023 = escort through immigration. Departure : escort from check-in desk to private (crew) security, proposed spontaneously
- KIX: Arrival : escort through immigration, wait at baggage claim. Departure : escort from check-in desk to lounge All proposed spontaneously
- SIN: no special treatment to report
CARIBBEAN & INDIAN OCEAN
- CUR: no special treatment to report, there is no (sky)priority lane for security or immigration, but escort/short track is available for 100 $.
- HAV: at departure, escort from check in counters until security checks. Pre-boarding offered. No escort at arrival. No reserved space in Lounge.
- FDF: No reserved space in Lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the gate.
- MRU: escort on arrival through immigration. Unknown for departures (no data point)
- PTP: Reserved table in lounge. Pre-boarding upon request at the lounge with escort from lounge to plane.
- RUN: Pre-boarding proposed at check-in and in the lounge, with escort from lounge to plane. Reserved seats in lounge
- SXM: Escort for incoming transit pax (from/to AF flight) through passport controls and security, pre-boarding pro-actively offered for AF departure
MIDDLE EAST
- AUH : no special treatment to report
- BEY: no special treatment to report
- DXB: escort from check-in to lounge and from lounge to plane, all upon request, consistently provided. Access to the Ahlan lounge (normally reserved for P pax) instead of Skyteam lounge.
- JED: no special treatment to report
- RUH: no special treatment to report
- IST: no special treatment to report
AFRICA
- AGA: escort from check in to lounge and from lounge to aircraft, provided spontaneously
- CAI: no special treatment to report
- CMN: escort on arrival through immigration (not always consistently provided)
- CPT: escort from counter to lounge, provided spontaneously
- JNB: escort from counter to lounge (no fast track at immigration), provided spontaneously
- LOS: no special treatment to report
- RAK: escort on arrival, upon request (not provided on departure)
- RBA: on departure : escort to lounge and to plane, provided spontaneously.
- TUN: escort on arrival through immigration provided. Escort from check-in to lounge provided
- ZNZ: no special treatment to report (not even lounge access)
Flying Blue Platinum Ultimate Status
Sep 4, 2018, 6:20 am
#1442
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
No need to. It would be sufficient for them to offer a dedicated ultimate channel at immigration and security, and a proper space inside the existing lounges, not the zoo-type enclosure they have now in most of them. Have somebody escort you where necessary for departures, arrivals and connections. And booking guarantee, up to 24 hours before departure. Comfort? Not physical. But the peace of mind of not having to take extra time in case ground procedures take longer or in case the waiting list di s not clear, that gives comfort of the mind.
Last edited by San Gottardo; Sep 4, 2018 at 6:31 am
Sep 4, 2018, 10:39 am
#1444
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: France
Programs: LH Senator, AF/KL Platinum Ultimate, Le Club Accor Hotels Diamond, Nordic Choice Hotels Platinum
Posts: 60
To be honest, for me the "comfort" part is secondary to the "efficiency" part. A close second, but second. Knowing that I'll have a seat on the plane that I need to take thanks to booking guarantee, that I won't have to spend a long time in some line (check-in, security, immigration), the fact of not having to spend time on buses (thanks to limo in some places), the fact of knowing that even when I am pressed for time I can get something decent to eat. The "comfort" is obviously close second, but frankly as long as I can go through security with two people ahead of me instead of 20 or 200, then I care less if the lounge after security has a large whiskey bar or if the scrambled eggs have truffles in them.
And this is the one observation I have often about AF: they are doing a great job on comfort/luxury/aesthetics, but less so on efficiency. As an example: the cuisine and design of their Premiere Salon beats *any* of the First Class Terminals/FCLs of Lufthansa, Swiss and Austrian out of the ballpark (with the possible exception of the terrace of the FCL in Zurich with the great view on the Alps). But then compare the journey: to use the Premiere Lounge in Paris I need to battle on the access road to Terminal 2E, walk through the terminal building to the "check-in lounge", where I have to wait for some paper checks. Then walk even more - albeit with an escort - show passport, go through security, walk to the lounge. The entire thing takes 15-20 minutes. Compare that to the FCT: separate building, separate access road, the escort takes you right from the car to the security filter which is less than 10 meters from the car, they take your passport and the checks happen in the background, and you're in. Takes 2 minutes. Similar thing at Zurich with its dedicated entrance to the First Class Lounge in Terminal A: you don't even get to step on any of the air-side real estate used by "normal" passengers. I have turned up for intercontinental flights at FRA 30 minutes before departure, and it wasn't a problem. I have turned up 1h 10minutes at the Premiere counter in 2E, and they all made sourly faces and in the lounge did not miss an opportunity to point out to me with an almost reprimanding tone that I wouldn't have enough time to use this or that offering in the lounge. They couldn't imagine that I don't give a toss about the spa or the bar and that all I wanted was to spend as little time as possible from door to door between Paris and wherever I was going. The AF philosophy works great if you have time to indulge in all the luxury and comfort, but if you travel so much it wears off and you start caring more about going through the airport quickly than about the luxury of what in the end is just a lounge - where "lounge" is just a word to say "a less unpleasant place to be neither where you want to be (home, work, ...) nor what brings you closer to where you want to go (on the plane)".
In that sense, what would make ULTI more attractive to me would be to have an ULTI channel/escort at security and passport at every terminal, even if I fly with my family on an award ticket in Economy to Toulon or Lorient. Upgrade vouchers? Yeah, nice to have. But I'll trade time savings 200 times a year against comfort twice a year. I think if I told my wife that she can see me 30 minutes longer before/after every trip she would pay me the upgrade in cash every time. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't take the upgrade vouchers, but they matter less.
Just my 2 cents.
And this is the one observation I have often about AF: they are doing a great job on comfort/luxury/aesthetics, but less so on efficiency. As an example: the cuisine and design of their Premiere Salon beats *any* of the First Class Terminals/FCLs of Lufthansa, Swiss and Austrian out of the ballpark (with the possible exception of the terrace of the FCL in Zurich with the great view on the Alps). But then compare the journey: to use the Premiere Lounge in Paris I need to battle on the access road to Terminal 2E, walk through the terminal building to the "check-in lounge", where I have to wait for some paper checks. Then walk even more - albeit with an escort - show passport, go through security, walk to the lounge. The entire thing takes 15-20 minutes. Compare that to the FCT: separate building, separate access road, the escort takes you right from the car to the security filter which is less than 10 meters from the car, they take your passport and the checks happen in the background, and you're in. Takes 2 minutes. Similar thing at Zurich with its dedicated entrance to the First Class Lounge in Terminal A: you don't even get to step on any of the air-side real estate used by "normal" passengers. I have turned up for intercontinental flights at FRA 30 minutes before departure, and it wasn't a problem. I have turned up 1h 10minutes at the Premiere counter in 2E, and they all made sourly faces and in the lounge did not miss an opportunity to point out to me with an almost reprimanding tone that I wouldn't have enough time to use this or that offering in the lounge. They couldn't imagine that I don't give a toss about the spa or the bar and that all I wanted was to spend as little time as possible from door to door between Paris and wherever I was going. The AF philosophy works great if you have time to indulge in all the luxury and comfort, but if you travel so much it wears off and you start caring more about going through the airport quickly than about the luxury of what in the end is just a lounge - where "lounge" is just a word to say "a less unpleasant place to be neither where you want to be (home, work, ...) nor what brings you closer to where you want to go (on the plane)".
In that sense, what would make ULTI more attractive to me would be to have an ULTI channel/escort at security and passport at every terminal, even if I fly with my family on an award ticket in Economy to Toulon or Lorient. Upgrade vouchers? Yeah, nice to have. But I'll trade time savings 200 times a year against comfort twice a year. I think if I told my wife that she can see me 30 minutes longer before/after every trip she would pay me the upgrade in cash every time. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't take the upgrade vouchers, but they matter less.
Just my 2 cents.
« ... they understood from the very beginning what very frequent travellers need the most: comfort! The limousine service, 1st class lounge, and fast track with escort. » To me this is really part of comfort!
Sep 6, 2018, 4:50 am
#1445
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,049
In that case I would fight every 2 years to keep the ULTI status to benefit about a maximum efficiency for my European flights.
Sep 6, 2018, 5:28 am
#1446
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
Travelling a lot as well on medium haul, I would really appreciate if AF could replicate what they did for their P class and create a kind of unique entry point at CDG/Achirpol for ULTI members with an innovative and dedicated express security filter station with a kind of pre-TSA approach, as well a unique Lounge for ULTI medium haul flights (not necessarily super luxurious) and a private transportation on the tarmac if necessary.
In that case I would fight every 2 years to keep the ULTI status to benefit about a maximum efficiency for my European flights.
Something like AA Flagship check-in which is a dedicated check-in "lounge" (=closed off from the rest of the check-in area) with a direct access to the security control (depending on airport, this then merges with the normal Prio lane just before the podium of the TSA agents). Or something like FCL in Terminal A in Zurich, with a dedicated entrance in the middle of the terminal, its own security checkpoint (no mixing with other pax at all), leading directly into the lounge.
Last edited by San Gottardo; Sep 6, 2018 at 5:55 am
Sep 6, 2018, 12:28 pm
#1447
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
create a kind of unique entry point at CDG/Achirpol for ULTI members with an innovative and dedicated express security filter station with a kind of pre-TSA approach, as well a unique Lounge for ULTI medium haul flights (not necessarily super luxurious) and a private transportation on the tarmac if necessary.
Johan
Sep 6, 2018, 12:50 pm
#1448
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 367
It is as well standard procedure to use it when you have a F flight with AF out of CDG and start the journey in AMS. Indeed easy to switch ULTI's to there... if they only wanted.
Sep 8, 2018, 4:06 am
#1450
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Champaign, IL
Programs: AF/KL FB Ultimate Platinum for Life/Club 2000, UA MileagePlus
Posts: 524
I cannot tell you anything about Delta. For M&M HON Circle, they actually got it right from the start. All the main elements - First Class Lounges and First Class Terminal, car service, booking guarantee, upgrade vouchers, escort service, being on top of op-up lists, generosity with after sales complaints - were in place right from the start. There were changes afterwards, but actually they took things away! The one thing most people missed - and still miss - was the best call centre any airline could have with a dedicated HON team, the famous "Kassel team". My God, they were good. Complex itineraries, little tricks and quirks with fares and bookings - they knew all the tricks, and had great fun "collaborating" with passengers on tricky problems. I sent them flowers and boxes of chocolate every year and on several other occasions. They knew many of the passengers. Since Kassel went, the Lufthansa line seems to be the normal SEN line just with faster response time (which is still great: usually after one or two tings). I've since used the LX line more often, they are close to what Kassel used to be.
But other things went away as well: the 50% earnings premium, earning HON miles on UA/US (this was in the early days, when US was still part of the LH/UA trans-Atlantic alliance), most (all?) of the Hotel status partnerships (HONs had highest status on Hyatt, Hilton, Kempinski, etc), free newspaper subscriptions (Financial Times, many other European papers and magazines). And, more radically: some years into the program, when the airlines feared that it was becoming too crowded or had already become too crowded, they changed the qualification criteria. The number of HON Circle miles to qualify was still 600,000 over two years, but now only First Class and Business Class tickets counted towards the status. Under the old scheme this was the equivalent of 70 flights in Business Class from Frankfurt to New York, or 240 intra-Europe flights in the higher priced Business Class buckets. Few people ever qualified with only Economy Class flights, but many were those who had a healthy mix of premium and Economy flights to reach the qualification level. Some new things were introduced as well, for instance a private entrance at ZRH airport, which all pax leaving from Switzerland greatly appreciate. Another nice gesture: there were two years where at the end of the year LH made a gift of 30,000 HON miles to every member, because those had been strike years. The logic was that people could not fly LH as much as they might have wanted to, so the airline wanted to be "fair" and thus gave 10% of the yearly requirement as a gift.
As a data point: there never was a "roll over scheme". Your HON Circle miles reset to zero at the start of the calendar year. And - funnily enough for people who also follow this thread and who are used to the roll-over scheme that exist also for lower levels in Flying Blue - nobody ever complained about that.
There were a couple of threads over in the LH forum complaining about how HON had become less attractive, about 4-5 years ago. However, these days, few criticisms of the structure or working or benefits of the HON programme. Criticisms about how certain services are delivered - e.g., the escorts in some airports are deemed useless - and from DYKWIAs, who complain about having to share their limo ride to the plane with others, or even - shocking! - use a van instead of the Mercedes S Class or the Porsche Panamera. Many are in the same place as I: it could be (significantly) improved in a number of ways, but when I look at alternatives - FB ULTI would be one as Paris is one of my home bases - then I realize that M&M HON is still by far the best thing around. I would never ever re-direct any travel to AFKL only to obtain ULTI, the benefits in terms of making my travel more efficient and comfortable are just laughable (however, the reason I still watch this thread is to keep an eye on whether it develops into something I would find attractive). For HON however, I do make sure that I requalify (I usually do anyway), it's something that I would not like to miss. If you ask the question from an airline perspective of who has succeeded in loyalising passengers: LH/LX definitely have. AFKL, you tell me. I think I see some cracks in the front of enthusiasm.
Thus, after this long look back in history, to answer your question: yes, in terms of benefits, M&M HON Circle did get things right, right from the beginning.
But other things went away as well: the 50% earnings premium, earning HON miles on UA/US (this was in the early days, when US was still part of the LH/UA trans-Atlantic alliance), most (all?) of the Hotel status partnerships (HONs had highest status on Hyatt, Hilton, Kempinski, etc), free newspaper subscriptions (Financial Times, many other European papers and magazines). And, more radically: some years into the program, when the airlines feared that it was becoming too crowded or had already become too crowded, they changed the qualification criteria. The number of HON Circle miles to qualify was still 600,000 over two years, but now only First Class and Business Class tickets counted towards the status. Under the old scheme this was the equivalent of 70 flights in Business Class from Frankfurt to New York, or 240 intra-Europe flights in the higher priced Business Class buckets. Few people ever qualified with only Economy Class flights, but many were those who had a healthy mix of premium and Economy flights to reach the qualification level. Some new things were introduced as well, for instance a private entrance at ZRH airport, which all pax leaving from Switzerland greatly appreciate. Another nice gesture: there were two years where at the end of the year LH made a gift of 30,000 HON miles to every member, because those had been strike years. The logic was that people could not fly LH as much as they might have wanted to, so the airline wanted to be "fair" and thus gave 10% of the yearly requirement as a gift.
As a data point: there never was a "roll over scheme". Your HON Circle miles reset to zero at the start of the calendar year. And - funnily enough for people who also follow this thread and who are used to the roll-over scheme that exist also for lower levels in Flying Blue - nobody ever complained about that.
There were a couple of threads over in the LH forum complaining about how HON had become less attractive, about 4-5 years ago. However, these days, few criticisms of the structure or working or benefits of the HON programme. Criticisms about how certain services are delivered - e.g., the escorts in some airports are deemed useless - and from DYKWIAs, who complain about having to share their limo ride to the plane with others, or even - shocking! - use a van instead of the Mercedes S Class or the Porsche Panamera. Many are in the same place as I: it could be (significantly) improved in a number of ways, but when I look at alternatives - FB ULTI would be one as Paris is one of my home bases - then I realize that M&M HON is still by far the best thing around. I would never ever re-direct any travel to AFKL only to obtain ULTI, the benefits in terms of making my travel more efficient and comfortable are just laughable (however, the reason I still watch this thread is to keep an eye on whether it develops into something I would find attractive). For HON however, I do make sure that I requalify (I usually do anyway), it's something that I would not like to miss. If you ask the question from an airline perspective of who has succeeded in loyalising passengers: LH/LX definitely have. AFKL, you tell me. I think I see some cracks in the front of enthusiasm.
Thus, after this long look back in history, to answer your question: yes, in terms of benefits, M&M HON Circle did get things right, right from the beginning.
Thank you very much, San Gottardo, for this very illuminating and appealing portray of the HON circle program. I was vastly ignorant of the perks offered to its members, and what you describe is truly impressive. You might, indeed, be right that they got it right from the start, but being right from the start necessarily comes at a price that probably (grossly) exceeded the budget envelope AFKL was willing to allot to its top-tier program. On the other hand, aren't we comparing apples and oranges here? Let's be fair. In contrast with the Ultimate program, the requirements to achieve HON circle status are far more stringent, and stymied by the necessity to fly in J or P, as you clearly pointed it out (under these premises, I would never be able to qualify, being statutorily constrained to purchase plebeian tickets). So, okay --- at first glance, the scope of the two programs looks a bit different, Ultimate being somewhat more democratic than HON circle (if I am reading correctly the recriminations of my fellow Ultimates, what we now have ought to be called the Penultimate program
, while a hypothetical Ultimate program, on par with HON circle, would target the topmost tier of the high-contribution customers). Let's take some altitude and now compare the perks of being HON circle and Ultimate member. According to onemileatatime.com, which, I assume, did its homework, the former entitles you to,- A 25% mileage bonus
- 6 e-vouchers (it takes 1-2 vouchers per upgrade, so this equates to 3-6 upgrades every two years)
- Senator status for a spouse
- A meet-and-greet service in Frankfurt and at all intercontinental destinations
- An additional baggage allowance
- First class check-in (though all Star Alliance Gold members get that)
- The highest priority for operational upgrades, and also special treatment from the crew
). 5. On AF flights, I am ordinarily given a two-baggage allowance plus one carry-on, and a three-baggage allowance plus one carry-on on KL flights, which is way more than I need. 6. This is the second stumbling stone, and something very unlikely to happen in any foreseeable future. Let's forget for a minute about AMS and KL, which does not have a first class anyway. AF is proud and ultra-protective of its flagship and rightfully acclaimed P service (which loses money, but is sanctuarized by virtue of the brand image it represents). My interpretation from afar is that regardless of how high our contribution to the airline is, we are not part of the aristocracy of the P lounge (unless, of course, we fly in P). That said, the effort of the Ultimate program management to give us a flavor of the P lounge through dedicated rooms in the Paris hub (not the laughable enclosures separated from the rest of the lounge by means of velvety ropes ) is commendable (shame again on KL and AMS for not offering a similar facility ). I also find remarkable the escort and fast-track service at outstations, which has saved me precious time in the lounge to get some work done before boarding. 7. I have been opup'ed several times from W to J, and a couple of times from J to P in a year period. It also seems that the directives sent from above slowly sink in, and the crews on long hauls usually go the extra mile for their Ultimate customers on board. Flight attendants and pursers refractory to changes are inevitable, but my gut feeling is that they now are a minority on the AFKL fleet.Absent from the above itemized list is the dedicated phone line for HON circle members, which people have been raving about. At the same time, the Platinum line service has been extolled by aficionados of the thread [Q&A] Flying Blue Platinum/C2000 Employee here / Ask your questions. The TA team goes one step beyond, and will usually bend over backwards to meet the needs of the Ultimates. Barring one or two instances, they never dropped the ball on me. Whether for flight irregularities, upgrade requests, meet-and-greet requests, or special-meal requests, I cannot find enough superlatives ^.
And one last thing, Ultimates have been complaining vehemently (and for good reasons) about the absence of UXP rollover to qualify again for a two-year cycle. It would appear that HON circle wipes the slate clean just the same, and asks its members to prove their loyalty starting from scratch.
Sep 9, 2018, 2:42 am
#1451
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: AF/KL FB Plat ; A3 Gold ; HH Gold ; IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 2,378
If I am not mistaken, the 25% miles bonus for HON is the same for SEN and possibly FQTV whereas Platinum (and Ultimate) get 100% bonus. However for M&M, this bonus also applies to qualifying miles which is a way to make it a bit easier to requalify.
Regarding luggage, HON do not get additional allowance on LIGHT fares whereas with AFKL, as Silver or higher, you are sure to get one bag free. I like the AFKL approach and find the LH approach pretty arrogant.
Regarding luggage, HON do not get additional allowance on LIGHT fares whereas with AFKL, as Silver or higher, you are sure to get one bag free. I like the AFKL approach and find the LH approach pretty arrogant.
Sep 9, 2018, 9:26 am
#1452
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
@Macaron54: Whilst your facts and comparisons are factually correct, they slightly miss the point, because they are based on what you had read in that article. The problem is that the article just like many others are written by people who are dazzled by the comfort and luxury aspects that certain frequent-flier status tiers give access to. And whilst HONCircle certainly gives “more access” to luxury (First lounge also when not flying in First), The underlying philosophy is a different one. The program is designed to make travel less stressful, not less frugal. “Less stressful” means that anything that could eat up time ( waiting in some line, waiting on the phone, standing on a bus to go to the plane on a tarmac position) is reduced to a minimum, that any irregularity is ironed out easily. The comfort elements’ primary objective is less to take people to gastronomic or interior design heights they rarely experience, they exist to not make the very frequent flying something that forces people to eat worse than they otherwise would, work in an environment that is noisier than otherwise, etc. Also, booking guarantee - HONs are guaranteed a seat on any flight up to 24 hours before departure, SENs 48 hours - is a “take stress out” element, not a luxury element.
And that is exactly where AFKL is often different.
Is HON more difficult to obtain? Arguably yes. But I take the reasoning the other way around: if I did all the flying on air France and KLM that gets me HONCircle, what would I get with them? A program where I’d still stand in the same long lines on Monday morning at 2F, use the same lounge (maybe with the benefit of the zoo-type exposure that comes with the benefit of not having to fight for space), take the same bus and ride the same train in 2E, and so on. That’s the real difference.
And that is exactly where AFKL is often different.
Is HON more difficult to obtain? Arguably yes. But I take the reasoning the other way around: if I did all the flying on air France and KLM that gets me HONCircle, what would I get with them? A program where I’d still stand in the same long lines on Monday morning at 2F, use the same lounge (maybe with the benefit of the zoo-type exposure that comes with the benefit of not having to fight for space), take the same bus and ride the same train in 2E, and so on. That’s the real difference.
Last edited by San Gottardo; Sep 9, 2018 at 11:50 pm
Sep 9, 2018, 1:55 pm
#1453
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
However, I and others with similar travel patterns aren’t usually bothered by that: I almost never check luggage, and the seating algorithm works so well that I always end up in one of the priority seats anyway, including blocked neighbouring seat.
So, yes, it’s „arrogant“ in attitude, but it’s a no-harm-done non-event in 99% of cases.
Sep 10, 2018, 1:07 am
#1454
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 367
But I take the reasoning the other way around: if I did all the flying on air France and KLM that gets me HONCircle, what would I get with them? A program where I’d still stand in the same long lines on Monday morning at 2F, use the same lounge (maybe with the benefit of the zoo-type exposure that comes with the benefit of not having to fight for space), take the same bus and ride the same train in 2E, and so on. That’s the real difference.
Speaking of which, I already succeed to linger around my current UXPs for some time and will do so as long as I can making some other carriers very happy indeed:
Sep 10, 2018, 3:13 am
#1455
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: Eurostar Carte Blanche, SBB-CFF-FFS GA-AG, SNCF Grand Voyageur LeClub
Posts: 7,836
1799 UXPs... well done.
If I were you: if you still have that level of 1799 UPXs at the end of the year and collected top status from other airlines, send a letter to AFKL (Pieter Elbers or someone like that, I am sure you have his email), tell them what you think of AFKL, tell him that you could be captive customer given that you are AMS-based, but that you prefer other airlines than to renew worthless ULTI, and attach a scan of your BAEC Gold, LH HON, EK Gold, whatever. They will react, I can assure you that.
BTW: speaking of exchanges with AFKL management, I received an invite for a dinner reception in Paris this month. Anyone else got that? Going there? What are the criteria? Not all Plats got it, that I know for sure. ULTIs, what's the mix for your cocktails, do you get your own events or do you have to mingle with the plebs of normal Plats?
If I were you: if you still have that level of 1799 UPXs at the end of the year and collected top status from other airlines, send a letter to AFKL (Pieter Elbers or someone like that, I am sure you have his email), tell them what you think of AFKL, tell him that you could be captive customer given that you are AMS-based, but that you prefer other airlines than to renew worthless ULTI, and attach a scan of your BAEC Gold, LH HON, EK Gold, whatever. They will react, I can assure you that.
BTW: speaking of exchanges with AFKL management, I received an invite for a dinner reception in Paris this month. Anyone else got that? Going there? What are the criteria? Not all Plats got it, that I know for sure. ULTIs, what's the mix for your cocktails, do you get your own events or do you have to mingle with the plebs of normal Plats?
Last edited by San Gottardo; Sep 10, 2018 at 3:19 am