San Gottardo

Even frequent readers of this forum may be forgiven for not following that long thread and all its details covering many aspects (from the drinks you had at the bar to announcements about structural changes) in order to stumble across something that might possibly indicate a fundamental change in one of the things that links people to that airline. I don't criticize the thread or its authors, I criticize the airline if it thinks that people should rely on some unconfirmed fragments of info buried deep in a thread with another subject somewhere on the Internet.

Moreover, there may be 50 or so regular followers of this forum. There are I don't know how many millions of non-Flyertalkers out there - they do not have a right to know?

I believe it is one of the most basic things that a company informs the customers it wants to loyalize about changes to its product, of which the FFP is part. We get all kinds of marketing BS from AF about things noone cares about, but they do not communicate changes - both bad and good - to its FFP?

I am following this trhead since it's been dissociated from the other discussion. WIth a smile (=happy to have made my PFL during the good times, now whenever I cannot avoid AF I still get lounges, fast track, etc) and with amazement (whilst they may or may not have done their business plan correctly the way this was not communicated to customers kills every hope in me for a turnaround to a more customer-centric company respecting the most primitive rules of such).

Whilst the changes are what they are - partly good, partly bad in a way that would have been easy to avoid (make paying the surcharge an option) - the way its introduction has been managed is amateurish at best.

Richelieu

This is the problem: do you really expect, with ATH at 90k, DXB to stay at 80k and North America to stay at 100k? YQ made redeeming in Y a lousy proposition because it was a significant part of the total price. Removing them is great, but if the process involve making C tickets a lousy proposition, this is a change that noone can be happy with, as the pattern of redeeming in premium cabins is long established I think.

Richelieu

There was an implicit request not to devalue in a way that lets fear the whole award structure will suffer. With C ticket thrice the price of Economy for short-haul, and a 1,000 miles flight at 90k, how much do you expect a C award to DXB or LAX to cost?

Nobody is complaining about a 30 € discount on Y award in Europe. We're complaining about the new x3 rate for Business. Which wasn't exactly mentionned in the thread, for one, and which deserve a wider announcement than an ominous allusion in a thread on Flyertalk. We got an email announcing the close of BLUENITY, but nothing for this significant change?

Of course. But there is very little to hope. The decision to pay for the cost of reduced Y award by putting the cost on C award is probably not efficient (as very few people redeemed in either, certainly, especially shorter C flights) unless it's the general attitude (with people actually redeeming in LH business cabins)

bodory

That is the point : one should burn their FB miles asap before they increase the long haul J redemption rates.

carnarvon

+1 ^

stimpy

You are right in the global sense. I was referring to our little group here. As I recall the marketing head said he was going to make a big announcement. This doesn't seem to be the case as I have only found out about the news on Flyertalk. Did anyone get an email from FB?

AJCNL

I too don't understand the excessive complaining here. Who in their right mind uses their own miles or money to fly in C class on short European routes, especially Platinum members who get lounge access and exit seats anyway? For years now it has been as good as pointless to use miles in Y within Europe due to the high cash amounts required, if these have now been slashed it will certainly make Y award tickets in Europe attractive again, especially for the most loyal customers for the reasons above, and I welcome that.

NickB

Well, I followed the thread and I was at the CDG DO but I, for one, was surprised at the huge increase in intra-European C redemption rates. THIS, above everything, is what people are surprised by. Correct me if I am wrong but I do not recall anything remotely resembling a shadow of a hint at the Do that we were to expect a huge jacking-up of intra-European C redemption rates.

In any event, the point of lack of notice is not whether an inchoate and undetermined change of some description to redemptions was to be expected but rather that the precise changes are made known with reasonable notice so that members can decide whether they should redeem their miles under the old structure before the new one kicks in.

Knowing that yet-to-be-clarified changes are coming up is not the same thing at all as knowing exactly what the changes are so as to be able to make an informed decision on what to do.

Philip1

Living in Arnhem, Dusseldorf and Oneworld suddenly seems a lot closer. Let's just see if they will flip my membership.

stimpy

You are right about that. What was discussed was the removal of YQ from awards.

That's not fair at all. You can still use your miles for long haul under the old system, or enjoy cheaper short haul in economy with your miles. And as has been stated several times here using your miles for intra-Europe C awards seems pretty foolish. So I don't see what you can complain about in terms of advanced notice. The only changes so far are beneficial.

NickB

The point is not about it being impossible to use miles. It is about giving advance notice of significant changes.

I do not normally use my FB miles for intra-European C redemptions. But that is besides the point. And whether it is a foolish use of miles or not is besides the point too. Some people might have used their miles to redeem on the longer European segments in C. While it is not something I would do, it is THEIR decision to make, not mine to pass judgment on whether they should or should not. And if the rules of the game are changed, it is normal for this to be with advance notice.

Let us say that FB decides tomorrow to increase redemption rates on long-haul C by 100% in return for removing YQ. I suspect you would be among the first ones (I would not be far beyond you on that ) to scream blue murder and complain about the lack of notice. The fact that the current change does not impact YOUR use of miles and what YOU consider as a sensible use of miles (and I agree with you assessment of what is sensible here but that is irrelevant) does not mean that it should be treated any differently from the perspective of notice.

IMO, ANY change to an FFP other than a very minor one should be communicated with sufficient notice to members to enable them to act in the light of the change.

stimpy

I'm not saying they shouldn't have given better notice. I'm saying in this case its not a big deal. It is my speculation that AF didn't sell very many intra-Europe C awards under the old system. It's not like the 1990's when there was a big difference between business and economy. So I don't see much of a change to the status quo.

Of course a similar change to long haul would be a big deal, but we don't know what's going to happen with that and I'm not going to stress about it personally. Some may want to burn all their miles. I'll keep mine and use them for Euro flights in Y now that there is no longer a surcharge.

Richelieu

The current changes can be summarized as that:

• YQ is included in the price of Y ticket without increase
• YQ is included in the price of C ticket with a 50% increase

I don't think anyone is furious at the first change. We're complaining at the whole package, in that C redemption rates are used to "fund" the change, while YQ is a much smaller part of the total price for C than Y. The one who were bothered the least by YQ are the one who lose most. The fact that few of us ever redeemed for intra-EU award, be it in Y or C, isn't the problem. It's especially concerning as it's linked to a thread where FB asked for opinion on increasing miles needed in exchange of including YQ. This is _not_ the way to go, and the lack of communication on what could be seen as an overall improvement let me think that they're preparing the worst. If they were genuinely seeing that as an improvement, wouldn't they have communicated about it, to entice people into booking on AF/KL (that's the point of a loyalty scheme...)? Loyalty requires trust, and the way these changes are managed isn't "trust-building".

NickB

If the take-up was insignificant (and I suspect that you might well be right on this), then there is all the more reason not to rush into forcing it on members. They could have had a period during which you could choose either the old or new system.

KLflyerRalph

I also don't understand the complaining about the raise of the C awards. For me (and I assume a lot of others) the integration of YQ in Economy awards that stay at the same level of mileage required is awesome.
C awards intra-EU were not worth it before either IMHO. Certainly not if you're E+.

The main problem I think is the signal this change shows:
- No communication at all. Utterly unacceptable, pathetic and just blunt. Again shows poor customer interest.
- As of now, the horror assumption (speculation!) that longhaul awards will increase too
- Unclear what has happened/will happen to promoawards. Currently, they (the European) are just taken offline in a period they should still be valid and bookable.