hfly

rfrn.....True DL and KL do not have F, AF does however, and I have never had any trouble checking in at those desks, nor any of the Chinese Airlines F desks either. For that matter BA do not have F check-ins at many of their stations either, while strangely LH will have F check-in desks at stations that do not offer F.

Regarding upgrades, there can be 1001 ways to upgrade, but I was correcting one specific point that the poster made which was factually incorrect.

If you want to speak about operational upgrades I can say that in my experience, FB is far better than LH, BA, or EY in this regard, worse than DL and TK and equal to EK.

Not that it was the subject of what we were talking about, I can say from my experience that none of the big programs are that great anymore. Furthermore in their race to make super premium and super super premium levels, all they have done is turn their former top tiers into mediocrity and their former low tiers into nothing special whatsoever.

Goldorak

I confirm what you say : no access to F check-in counters with a FB platinum card, only J counters.

orbitmic

You are very lucky: it is absolutely not a perk and should have been refused. This is different from both BA and LH. I'll admit to also being very surprised that AF allowed you to do it: AF take their F very seriously and would not take the risk of a mere platinum possibly causing an F pax to wait. If I were to venture a guess I'd say that maybe all the actual F pax had already checked in or none were confirmed.

Actually, you seem to understand what the OP said as a reference to the upgrade vouchers, but to me, the way he speaks of them does not imply that at all. It seems to me that his phrasing makes it quite possible that he merely referred to being op up'ed five times?

Not in my experience. In fact, AF makes no mystery of the fact that FB status plays an extremely low role in the op up algorithm and that they may routinely choose to upgrade lower status pax over high status ones. This has been explicitly confirmed by AF to several of us multiple times.

hfly

orbitmic,

While I rarely check-in in Paris (now that I think of it, I cannot recall checking in at CDG for over a decade), and I often do not have baggage, so check-in online, I have checked in at a plethora of AF outstations around the World and as I am always flying J and am FB for life have never had any problem checking in at F desks, no one has ever said anything to me. To be frank, I had just always assumed that it was a stated perk........if not, if not, I can say that at least in my case(s) it is an unstated one.

Re-reading the bit about upgrades, let's just say that it is not that clear, and we both may have taken our own understanding from what he wrote.

Regarding Op-ups, I actually fully agree with you, I believe that it has little to do with their "algorithm". Yet, still that is where they rank in my experience vs other carriers where I have had top earned (rather than discretionary) status.

brunos

I side with all the other responses you received and strongly feel that you are wrong.
You cannot access F checkin at CDG with Plat. There is not a "plethora of outstations" with a dedicated F desk. And in the very few cases where there is, it is reserved for F pax. Of course, this checkin counter is often empty and agents will direct J and elite+ pax to it when there is no one in line there. That does not mean that it is a perk of Plat.

I fully agree with Orbitmic and many other posters on FT that AF uses an opup algorithm where status play a very little role. It even seems to me that it is a negative factor for longhaul, at least from Y to J. Plats are "expected" to pay for a J ticket and AF tries to "induce" non-status flyers by upgrading them.
But you say that you always fly J. Does it mean that you have often been upgraded to La Premiere? I strongly doubt it.

I have been Plat for many years, and never got a single opup to F. But I have been upgraded on BA quite a few times, even CX. Nowadays, many airlines offer upgrade for cash (or miles), so free opup to F have become quite rare for anyone except VIPs.

San Gottardo

Since the original question was looking at the differences between Club2000 and FB Platinum, I was wondering whether anyone has information about whether Club2k pax get treated differently in the upgrade algorithm.

And another question: is the KL algorithm the same as the AF one?

As to post comparing FB Platinum to M&M Senator to BA Silver: BA Silver should not be compared to the other two, it is a tier below. Yes, M&M Senator offers more perks than FB Platinum or BA Gold, but still, it's no longer what it used to be I believe. But I don't know to what extent this is testimony of M&M being so generous or FB Platinum being so ungenerous. I think it is a bit of the former and quite a bit of the latter.

orbitmic

Yes, that's almost exactly how it was explained to me. Rather not so much that Plats are expected to pay but that AF feel that they are often at the maximum of their loyalty anyway whilst, say, silvers may often be induced to fly AF more, especially new silver, so they can explicitly get a higher weighting in the algorithm.

In my case, I have never received a long haul upgrade from BA! I haven't received a long haul upgrade from AF for years either. I have received upgrades to F from airline partners like AA, DL, and KE though!

On short haul, where I mostly fly Y, I receive a fair amount of upgrades on BA and almost none of AF. I used to get frequent upgrades to "Tempo Plus" in the old Frequence Plus years but that's long gone! KL are a bit nicer to me but still much less so than BA.

On the second question, KL uses a different algorithm than AF where status used to be a higher consideration. I think they have now moved to the same flight management system but I think algorithms remain different as do pretty much all operational elements.

I do not think that C2000 are treated differently as a block but individual passengers do get a different treatment from everyone else. I know one of the top people in a large oil company and he and his family effectively always get upgraded to the best available seat. I understand that many politicians get the same treatment, including the fact that DSK had been upgraded to F at the time he was infamously arrested 5 years ago. Other C2000 people seem to get zilch however.

hfly

Whoa, whoa, whoa guys.

Firstly, I have already admitted that I have not checked in at CDG for at least a decade, so have already admitted that I am not familiar with what the F check-in situation is there. I can say however that at JFK, I can recall twice in the last year having luggage (normally I do not) and walking up to the F desk and checking in, with no one saying a thing. The same also holds true for LAX in recent memory. Published or not, I was not sent there from J, and no one said anything to me. Again, I had always just assumed that it was a perk. Obviously it is NOT a written perk, and I have been corrected. Then again, as it is rare that I have luggage or even ever visit check-in desks, I wills till continue to go to the F desk(s), as this has never been something that has been an issue for me.

Brunos. I actually have been upgraded to La Premiere.............TWICE. I have also had perhaps 10 upgrades from Y to J in short and medium haul. (I generally fly only J for LONG HAUL, but fly all sorts of cabins short haul.......I did not know we were exclusively speaking about one cabin or the other as the conversation has gone all over the place).

Now read carefully what I wrote above. I do not believe that their "algorithm" is any good either, however in my experience (and that is all we can really write about here, our experiences, right?) it is better than some and not better than many others.

That being said, my experiences include not just being a FB Plat for Life, but a DL Diamond 2MM - with top status for the last 19 straight years, BA GM for Life - with Gold status for 21 straight years, TK E+ for 10 years, Senator for 14 years, and EK Gold for 8 years. But what do I know, right?

brunos

I respectfully disagree with my friend.

BA silver (OW sapphire) is comparable to M&M senator or FB Plat in my opinion. Sure, they all have pluses and minuses and BA silver does not give access to F checkin, but the major perk to me is to give access to the alliance business lounges. BA Gold is clearly superior (OW Emerald) as it offers access to OW F lounges (which Senator does not). Being based in Asia, it is a great plus to have access to the F lounges in KUL, HKG, SYD, MEL, Japan, even on a dirt-cheap regional Y ticket.

brunos

Then, I am more lucky with BA. In the past ten years, I have been upgraded by BA to F twice and wifey once. But nowadays, that is close to impossible because their F section is full thanks to awards and the many ways one can get upgraded through promotions, cash and miles.

I fully agree with you regarding C2000. I know three C2000s and only one of them (Chairman and CEO of a large semi-State company) regularly gets to the best available seat. The other two do not seem to get more than Plat. And politicians seem to always get top treatment. I have never seen a familiar politician face travel anywhere than in top class.

NickB

I am with San Gottardo on this one. What does BAEC Silver give you that you do not get from FB Gold?

Similarly, I would regard BAEC Gold as broadly equivalent to MM SEN/FB Plat (and GGL as broadly the equivalent of HON and with no equivalent in the FB World).

NickB

I wonder whether this is also a factor in BA's algorithm. I have never been upgraded long-haul as a BAEC Gold but was upgraded as a newly minted BA Silver. My partner, who is BA silver, has also tended to score more op-ups on BA than me, albeit on short-haul rather than long-haul.

My short-haul upgrades on BA have been extremely rare (and, again, more frequent when I was Silver) but then I more or less achieve Gold by the skin of my teeth every year so my CIV score would be much lower than yours and the lowest possible for a BAEC Gold.

Goldorak

I can share my own data and experience. Over more than 20 years of extensive flying on AF, I had a significant number of upgrades (all kinds, including double upgrades from Y to J), but I have to say they became more rare over the years. But to be fair :
- long-haul, I fly J most of the times and planes/routes with F are becoming rare nowadays, so possibility to have op-ups are very rare. I had in my life something like 8 F op-ups, the last one being more than 2 years ago. This year, I flew only one segment in Y long-haul and was not upgraded...nothing abnormal here.
- recently (last 6 months), I was upgraded 3 or 4 times from Y to J medium-haul, so nothing to complain about.

Regarding Club2000, they really used to have a special treatment, but I heard this is not true anymore. Again, to share one experience with you about 12 years ago. I was in DC attending a multi-company meeting and one of my counterpart from another company was French and was flying back to CDG from IAD on the same flight as me. We decided to share the same cab to go to IAD from our meeting place. We were both booked in J. He was Club2000 and I was F+Rouge. I have to say I had no clue at that time what was a Club 2000. We checked-in together in IAD and he said to the AF agent "I am Club 2000 (showing his card), is it possible to be upgraded to P ?". He asked that the same way you would go to your local bakery asking "I would like a croissant, please". The agent said politely "let me check". She went in the back office and came back 2 minutes later saying "yes, this is possible, here is your new BP". No need to say, I was completely speechless

brunos

I guess that it can depend on your travel pattern. and I mentioned mine. Mostly within-Asia (Y or J) several Asia-Europe flights per year (J), one Asia-US ( J), a few intra-European flights (Y).
There are marginal differences between FB Gold and Plat and to me there are in the same league. The major benefit is to give lounge access on Y international flights throughout the alliance, especially regional (although most domestic AF lounges are crap, even at ORY, while domestic lounges on BA and LH are decent).

FB Plat gives me basically no benefit when I fly longhaul J. *A Gold (Senator) is no better, as you only get access to the basic Senator or *A lounge. For family reason I fly a lot HKG-KUL (4 hours flight on MH or CX) and it's lovely to have a nice breakfast/lunch/dinner served at your F-lounge table even on a dirt-cheap Y short flight. With wifey, we use the F-lounges over 50 times per year each. That is worth a lot for me.

Senators might have some perks that people value, like the 2 e-vouchers, assuming you can use them. I do understand that travel patterns vary across posters and that some perks matters to some and not me. But OW F lounge access (even in LHR F-gallery) is a great plus that Senator of PLat do not match. And many OW airlines have F class and F-class lounges at their hub (I mentioned the Asian ones in my rpevious post), while ST only has two real F-class lounges (ICN and CDG) and they are not accessible for FB Plat.

orbitmic

Yes, I suspect it is true as well, although in BA's case I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth!