KVS

You could have certainly pursued a claim against AF for delaying your baggage:

http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common...ito_cgt4.htm#1
In the present scenario, you could also, at least in theory, pursue a claim against EuroFly for the damages you had suffered as a result of their delay (in this case that would be the $650 you had to pay AF):

http://www.eurofly.it/EN/condizionitrasporto.asp

Mennix

I don't agree with most of you.

Of course, AF kept the rules. But this shouldn't be everything.

I remember some time ago we had been with 3 people ( Eco V-fare ) from DUS via AMS to LAX. On the way to DUS a friend of mine suddenly recognized, that he forgot his passport. We turned back, drove like hell ( thanks to German Autobahn ) but despite all speed we missed our flight by some minutes.

KL agent told us, usually tickets are void, however he might check what he can do for us. Without any costs he rebooked us on the next flight to AMS, from there on a NW to DTW and connecting to LAX. The flight was not really good, we arrived very late, but we arrived without any extra costs.

Of course I didn't have any rights to ask for this rebooking. However in my personal opinion this is the way to service customers you want coming back and fly with you again.

Zembla

Agreed. However, they should be able to filter out people who are notorious in arriving late.

NickB

I am with Mennix on this. Yes, the OP has no entitlement. That said, his is the textbook example of a situation where exercising judgment rather than sticking to the rules in a robot fashion would be called for, imo. We are not talking about someone who is playing fast and loose and taking high risks for connections on separate tickets. There were FOUR hours between the flights. Moreover, the OP is PE. Clearly, this is a genuine case, and understanding and compassion on the part of the airline (at, it has to be said, no cost to the airline itself) goes a very long way in creating goodwill.

Yes, AF could have insisted on him paying the full-fare. This, however, would be a surefire way to make sure that the pax trots up to the ticket desk of another airline and flies with them and never ever sets foot on an AF plane again except where it is impossible to do otherwise. You can bet your bottom dollar that I would not buy a full-fare ticket from an airline that just treated me this way, even if it meant delaying my arrival home by several hours and a much longer/circumvoluted journey home, and I suspect that I would not be the only one to do so in such a situation.

I have been at the receiving end of AF's CDG personnel "generosity" in a similar situation and it had the predictable effect of my avoiding flying AF at all costs for quite some time. I have kind of recovered from it now () but it has still left an imprint and, unless there is a very clear advantage flying AF, I will rather fly another airline.

And yes, in my experience, AF and KL tend to behave differently in such situations with KL tending to show more flexibility and understanding than AF, although less markedly so than in the past.

Mennix

This might be one of the reasons, why KL customer - even if they complain a lot - often come back to "their" airline

JOUY31

I think a lot depends on your approach. As long as you understand that it is a courtesy that may be extended to you, and not an entitlement, that's fine. If you ask and it is possible, great. If it isn't, no hard feelings. I have seen many similar answers on the BA board, but I am not sure this was the OP's perception.

NickB

I agree up to a point. Yes, it is a matter of courtesy and discretion and not one of entitlement. That said, in the OP's position, I would be livid and, yes, I would harbour hard feelings. Fair enough for the agent to refuse to help the pax in iffy or unclear situations but when it is patent that the pax is of good faith, has acted more than reasonably and taken prudent measures such as leaving a very long gap between flights to avoid a misconnect, I would expect the airline to help and if the airline is one that I expect not to help, then I do not feel like giving it my business.
As to BA, I would agree with you too and BA agents, like AF's, will have no truck in telling you where to go, often with all the ice they can muster in a smile when they think that you don't have a deserving case and god help those pax who go all american on them and 'demand' this or that. That said, when you have a genuine case, my experience of BA staff is that they often are quite helpful (except when there is a complete system breakdown with major disruptions, when staff are often tense and less willing to be accommodating). This is just my own perception and is just as anecdotal as anybody else's, but, for now, I would personally feel safer with BA than AF in situations such as that of the OP.

sfozrhfco

I had a similar experience with AF. I had a OW award from IST-CDG-LAX. There was no availability to get back to SFO as the non-stop was completely full even for a paid ticket. I was told that I would have to book a OW on DL to get back to SFO which I did. They told me that it had to be on two separate tickets. The AF flight ends up getting into LAX a little late but as usual at LAX, the baggage belt was broken and the baggage took 1 1/2 hours for my priority bag to come out. This made me miss my DL flight. When I explained this to the AF rep they just told me there is nothing we can do with an attititude that they really didn't care that I missed my flight due to AF and their infrastructure at LAX. After much arguing with the neighboring agent getting involved as well, the agent finally put a note in my DL record explaining the problem and DL gave me no problems when requesting to get on the later flight. I know full well the risks of getting two separate tickets but in this case, AF reservations actually booked the two reservations and AF had access to the DL record. All I asked was to simply write an explanation to DL so that they could see that the baggage belt problem caused me to miss my flight. In the end he did it but not until I had to argue for 35 minutes with two different agents who seemed happy to refuse to do anything for me.

cfischer

agreed. If I understand the OP correctly and interpret the 'yelling back and forth' there was more like an 'I am entitled' attitude here ... and that was certainly not the case ... and AF doesn't like this (not that I know any airline, which appreciates such behavior). Doesn't look like AF charged them a full fare one-way either, so what is the issue. I am sure if the OP approached them differently, things would have turned out better. More than once did I have to ask for the station manger to get things sorted out, and in the end it always worked. Maybe the OP has a travel incident insurance via his CC; Amex Plat would probably cover this.
While I have never missed a flight (except missing connections in CDG ), I was certainly able to bend rules numerous times, from luggage too heavy to re-routing and changing flight dates ... always asked nicely ... always got what I wanted.

NickB

Sadly, this has not been my experience. After spending a very long time in a conciliatory tone and not getting one fraction of a millimetre of movement on the part of the agent at CDG, I eventually had to become more aggressive and only then did some movement occur. The fact that you often had to get the station manager intervene, which is another way of escalating the issue as much as possible, speaks volumes, imo.

cfischer

You have to differentiate between something 'you are entitled' to and 'something they can do for you'. I call a station manager when I am entitled to something and need to get it done; else not much use in escalating this. Certain things at outstations can only be done by someone with the respective authority ... if you know it can be done and should be done, there is nothing wrong with asking for the station manager.

The OPs case is so clearly outside of the control of AF, I would have simply tried to get this fixed immediately by someone from AF with re-booking authority; basically admitting it's my fault and asking to make a one time exception for a loyal PE.

I never said that AF does it all right, hell no, read some of my other posts , but you have to know when it is worth fighting and when not.

JOUY31

It is a very fine line you have to walk. If you go beyond saying that you have taken prudent measures and actually say that you have done nothing wrong or that it was not your fault, you are on a very shaky ground in a Latin country, as it will be interpreted as being AF's fault and the agent's. I fully agree with cfischer that the effective approach (I mentioned that in a thread initiated by obscure2k a few years ago ) is to admit that you screwed up, that you are entitled to nothing, that you are in left in a dreadful situation, that the only person who can help is the agent you are talking to and could he please help ? It usually works nicely for me.

KLouis

I would like to believe that ALL airlines instruct their agents to be "generous" if the "stranded" passenger's demands don't produce any extra cost for them. With this in mind (although I may be completely wrong), my personal experience says that a) using a kind approach raises your chances and b) you fully depend on the agent's mood that may range from excellent to disgusting. I've been accommodated on several airlines (including a case of the most blatant mistake of mine with BA) and I've been met with rude unwillingness to help by the very same companies. And as for the PE status, again I've seen the attitude of "Hah, you now think you own the world...?", so this asset may also fail. Bottom line when missing a connection: "Destino avverso, Come a scherno mi prendi!" (La forza del destino, act 4)

Mennix

Fully agree. In another Forum ( German language ) where frequent flyers and airline employees post there is a posting of an AF agent:

"Cardholders are always the biggest idiots"

Background was a discussion about Lounge infrastructure. She never did see any lounge at CDG from inside but dreamed about endless luxury. When I wrote back, that I visit Lounges frequently, she told me ....

She was quite new with AF ( and airlines overall ) so this seemed to be some teaching from co-workers.

NickB

I agree that adopting a meek line and not putting the agent on the defensive right away has to be the only starting point. This is the position I would adopt with any airline. However, it has also been my experience that this tends to produce less results with AF (at CDG,at any rate) than with other airlines. It has also been my experience that the most AF will tend to do is to charge you half the return fare from a mid-range fare (if available), whereas BA, in a similar situation, would try to rebook you for free if possible, if you have a good case. But, I admit that this is just my personal experience and based on a very low number of occurrences and, as such, purely anecdotal. The experience of others may be different.
I have to say, though, that my (elderly) parents's experience and my partner's experience in situations of misconnects due to weather delay and on a through ticket has not been good either and that, in each case, it required lengthy discussions and a lot of insistence to get somewhere reasonable, with AF CDG agents defaulting to a "no-can-do" mode, however friendly and conciliatory your initial approach.
Examples:
1)my parents (both well over 70): misconnect on a UA/AF connection at CDG on a through ticket. Get to an AF counter at CDG2. Grumpy agent tells them that it is UA's problem and initially refuses to do anything and tells them to go back to UA in CDG1. Eventually relents, but books them on the last flight of the day, even though seats were available on several earlier flights, but not in the same booking class.
2) my partner and his elderly aunt (also 70+): misconnect due to weather on an all-AF itinerary on a through ticket. Told in CDG that the only thing that can be done was to put them on a flight four days later. Only after lengthy discussion do AF eventually agree to reroute them on an AF flight on the sameday to a nearby destination with a shorter hop on another carrier to their final destination.
Same pattern again: initial approach is "sorry, there is nothing else that we can do" and only when the pressure is piled on is there some give to end up not with the ideal solution from the pax perspective but an acceptable mid-range solution. Is it really necessary to put the pax through those hoops, when the only effect is that it will leave a bad taste in the mouth of the pax? Granted, we are speaking about no-status or low status pax here but still...