Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM

It seems the general expectation is one of tailored, personal service which seems appropriate for First Class. I understand that there is now dedicated personnel to the 4(!) F seats on AF. What I don't understand then is what they do do?

AshleyB

Walk back and forth to the front galley all night with their friends! Seriously though it is not the fault of the cabin crew. They are almost always very good. It is the product. To hfly I would say that although I too have had good experiences on AF it is a question of value. On my last two flights (one from HKG and the other from PEK) it was really marginal, and certainly a deterioration from quite recent standards. My boss flies SQ and so I have travelled twice now with him (once in J once in F) and I have to say it is REALLY first class. As I mostly only ever get as far as J it doesn't affect me (sadly). I have just been a little surprised.

stimpy

All those are outside of the control of AF. They are restricted by what they can offer at CDG. Tell me who has a good F lounge at CDG? Anyone?

As I recall AF does this. I have told them that I'm sleeping and will eat later and they have no problem with this.

Valid complaints, however I will say that I'm quite happy with every C/F meal I've had on AF long haul and I love the French films. I wish the IFE was as good as SQ's Krisworld, but no one is as good as SQ for IFE.

I think if you ask, you can get this in F.

Where it is possible, sure. But most outstations don't always have the space for that. Take LAX for example. Which of any great international airlines has a great F lounge at LAX? Answer: None.

San Gottardo

True, ADP / CDG is a limiting factor. But then AF is ADP's and CDG's biggest and most influental customer. And they have quite an influence on many things at CDG, including the layout and construction timing of entire Terminal buildings. So why not on things like the interior design and service offering of their lounges? And why is ADP to blame if AF doesn't offer a limo service?

It's sad to see an airline with a glorious past and the ambition to be glorious be sandwiched somewhere between Lufthansa and the North Americans in terms of service quality.

But Air France has never been great in listening to their customers or understanding their needs. This is true for their longhaul product as well (or even more) their shorthaul product, their services on the ground and their direct sales channels.

stimpy

The discussions we have had here on Flyertalk in the past (with people far more knowledgeable on the subject than I), have shown that AF does not have very much influence anymore with ADP. In fact ADP is almost anti-AF in many ways.

I don't know the details of limo service, but I do know that many big airports do not allow airlines to offer limo service as they feel it clogs the transport corridors. CDG throughways are clogged enough! Any other airlines offering Limo service at CDG T2 Or T1 for that matter?[/QUOTE]

brunos

As other comments indicate, AF is two leagues away from Asian carriers; and I suggest that some of the posters above experience F class on those.
I do not see why ADP is used as a excuse for AF F lounges. There used to be F lounges in many airports (including CDG) and AF simply merged them with C. When the F lounges existed at CDG, the service/food/drinks were poor and very similar to the not-great C lounges. Given the existing space, AF could kept the F lounges but vast improvement was needed (nothing to do with ADP)
BTW Emirates has a good lounge at CDG.
Comparing the AF lounge in CDG to that of BA in LHR is an interesting exercise, whether in F or C. This applies to most airlines at their national home base.
Having AF staff escorting F pax embarking and disembarking has nothing to do with ADP. For example, TG pays a private company at CDG to escort every F pax from the moment they check in, to the lounge, and then to the plane; and from the plane to the luggage carrousel and to a taxi. This is very useful when a luggage is late as they can call directly "downstairs". When boarding they take you directly in front of the queue, if any. Actually in BKK, TG porters waits for pax outside the terminal (where cars unload) to take full care of you and your luggage (and vice versa when arriving); similar SQ service in SIN.
Yes several airlines offer limousine services at CDG, and I fail to see the difference with a public taxi in terms of clogging (many people order taxis in advance).
Onboard Food/wine/service is below par, and anyone who has flown recently on an evening flight would agree. Agreed it is not bad, but does not compare with most other airlines.
Video system, when working, is poor. Krisworld is great, but there are many many other airlines with equivalent systems (CX, TG, VS, etc...). Granted BA is also bad, but they are introducing a major revamp of thier video system.

I could go on. I understand that an upgraded or award pax is less inclined to complain. But if you spend vast amount of money, many other airlines are far better in F for lower cost.

AshleyB

AF management clearly sees no point in spending money on things like actual product enhancements when they are making such hefty profits. CDG is a disaster but one that does not seem to affect AF's bottom line. Your point about AF's indifference to customers is increasingly valid though. As others offer more (incl. at CDG! Anyone seen the EK lounge at 2C ?) AF looks like poor value and that could ultimately affect profits. Something for the bean counters to consider.

stimpy

I haven't used the EK lounge at CDG in a couple of years (I don't remember it being that great), but think about it. How many flights a day does EK have at CDG versus AF? The AF lounges are way overcrowded. They need more space desperately. They need more gates too. That isn't going to happen til ADP or the new Sarko government changes things and that isn't going to happen this year, or the next or the next.

If the ground services are most important to you, fly to a decent airport like MUC and use the Star Alliance. CDG and LHR are just horrible airports.

JOUY31

Just a few minor points:
- gates : by November this year, when S3 is fully operational, we should have more gates in CDG2, and also next year with the re-opening of 2E and the opening of 2G
- a number of issues are definitely outside of AF's reach; it was a catastrophic move from ADP to open an EK lounge in 2C at the time when, due to ADP's architectural shortcomings, 2E had become unavailable for AF. And while AF has been clamoring for ADP to move the opening of S4 from 2014 to 2010, ADP is still planning on opening it in the third semester of 2012; and we do know how ADP schedule tends to slip; CDG VAL was supposed to open in summer, then fall 2006 (and its SK predecessor was due ... before 2000); the christening of CDG VAL is now, hopefully, scheduled for March 15th this year
- in fairness to ADP, but even more so to AF, there is no other example of an airline losing its most recent terminal at its major hub for something like three years ... 2E should have been fully operational last summer with 156 check-in counters ... There is really no shortcut to building a new terminal, and AF has fought quite well to have additional gates in 2D, two temporary boarding areas, and a significant increase in buses for bord à bord or bord à salles operations to somewhat shorten the difficult transfers at its intercontinental hub.
- regarding the merger of the P and the J lounges, this is an unfortunate move which can be explained at the CDG hub by the overcrowding of the lounges; remember the outrage when Tempo Challenge passengers were turned away from lounges in CDG and just given a voucher for a snack ? This is fortunately no longer the case. And it is also the explicit reason given by senior AF markEting officials for not granting a second guest to the Platinum members of their FFP. Why this has also happened at JFK and NRT is another issue and probably a poor decision taken for the sake of consistency.
- finally, connecting in CDG is, unfortunately, not as bad as in LHR, which has gone dramatically downhill since last summer, and disruptions to AF operations over the last three years have been significantly lower than with BA operations.

San Gottardo

Very often I see Air France (or ADP) using valid arguments in the wrong place: sure, CDG is a big place, but they use the "size" example to excuse all kinds of things which have nothing to do with size (e.g., cleanliness, bad building maintenance, disorganised security).

The same goes for the Air France lounge story: indeed, I can understand why they merged the F and C lounges, and I have a lot of understanding for limiting the number of accompanying guests. But "too little space" is only one element of Air France's unimpressive lounge offering. Poor service from staff, ridiculous food offerings, unreliable WiFi connection, small selection of newspapers and magazines, etc.

One more point regarding not offering limo services on the tarmac because of overcrowding: a friend of mine is a pilot for Swiss. He says that one of the few things that's great about CDG is the space they have. However, he finds FRA a very dangerous place to taxi around because of the cramped space between the terminal just stretching along the runway and the many little cars going in all directions. And guess which airport has an excellently working limo system for its premium pax? You guessed it, FRA does.

I think AF should really push the envelope with ADP. They are making Air France look even lousier than need be. What a pity.

JOUY31

I would agree with you that AF needs to substantially enhance its lounge offering on most of the issues you have raised. I would personally believe that the selection of magazines and newspapers in CDG lounges is far larger than, for example, the BA F lounges in LHR or LGW, or in other European hubs. This, IMHO, is true for French newspapers and magazines, but also for non-French newspapers.

San Gottardo

True when compared to BA, AZ, LX and also I believe KL and SK. However, even the SEN lounges at every little German provincial airport have a wider selection, let along the FCT and FC Lounges in FRA and MUC.

I am just mentioning the LH offering because the thread started with someone saying that AF would basically go and copy the LH strategy on this: dedicated FC Lounges, limo service. And I do a comparison with LH for a simple reason: I have troubles believing that the level of service, attention and catering has slipped below that of the German one. Air France's FAs are still phantastic and top class, but it is a pity that Air France's First doesn't offer the best France can give: service, attention and food.

Also one aspect of Air France's F offering that I found surprising: there's only one FA for the F cabin on the NEV planes (=8 seats). True, at meal times they are being helped out by somebody from C class to do the service, but only if the cabin is full. Compare that to the staffing levels of other carriers in their F cabin. Air France FAs working in the F cabin, unlike those at other carriers, get an extra training course, and it shows they're proud of it. However, often I feel their pride is so inflated that they forget to do what they are there for: service the pax.

I have shifted most of my F travel to LH and LX (I almost never go to Asia), despite some of their shortcomings. And despite of them going downhill as well. But at least the overall offering on the ground and in the air makes it a First Class product. And I appreciate the difference they make for their status pax. The kind of things one gets as a SEN or a HON really make travelling less painful. Platinum on FB only gives few extras in daily travel (lounge access, CKI at the F or C counters, use of the fast lane when there is one, a little more luggage).

As people have said, it makes little sense for AF to change anything given their profitability. Sad.

stimpy

I'm sitting in the 2F lounge now. I just had a nice shower, there are plenty of newspapers and magazines in multiple languages and I'm using the WiFi just fine. Yes the food isn't great, but other than SK's excellent lounges at CPH and ARN, not many lounges in Europe have good food. And what other lounge has Vieux Armangac?

It's a darn sight better here than any SEN lounge at FRA. That's for sure.

JOUY31

True If they could just bring it onboard for medium-haul flights

San Gottardo

SEN lounges are irrelevant in this context, as First Class pax have the possibility to use the FCT /FC Lounges at Lufthansa's two hubs. And that's darn better than anything Air France ever offered. On top of that, limo service which is offered despite "crowded tarmacs".

On the SEN lounges, I tend to agree with you. Nothing special, some things better, some things worse than AF. In FRA they're usually super-crowded.