arunhn

Traveling JNB to CDG in two weeks, and it was a full flat 777 seat at the time of booking. Just saw a seat change and now it looks like AF is flying their oldest J seat config on this 11hr flight. I probably would not have picked this flight if I knew this at the time of purchase.
Does anyone know if AF offers any compensation for switching to such an inferior hard product?

jondo

No, you purchased cabin class, not a particular (type of) seat.
Getting compensated for seat/equipment "downgrade" would be reasonable only if the fares differed based on the seat/equipment.

arunhn

Yep I understand the legal terms of cabin versus seat type. But for all practical purposes, the seat type is a major factor in the purchase decision. So I was just wondering if anyone here had previous experience with Air France customer service compensating for this change. I'll email them and see what they say.

trooper

Can't see compensation..it is still Business class...but perhaps they would let you change the date?? (assuming the newer product is flown on that route on other occasions)

on.the.bowery

What a nightmare ! The two NEV4 birds are really loose like old dogs at the moment.

What a scam to be honest.

Even if they decided to replace these birds by Euro Atlantic 777, like they did on the Cayenne route last summer, you’d still be flying on a better cabin as they are equipped with the old Alitalia cabins.

I believe I have heard someone telling me before they were able to change flight when they learned the flight was going to be operated on this old cabin. But the member was AF Platinum / ULTI and it was done via the Platinum Service Line.

Keep us updated as it will be very interesting to know how AF considers PAX who are really disappointed by this product and how much are they willing to re-accommodate. I’d be truly shocked if they don’t give a Fokker.

on.the.bowery

Actually, to today’s standards it’s almost the exact definition and look of a very good premium economy class.

(I mean, it’s not truly comparable if I want to stay honest. It’s just what it is, an old and tired product that no one ever liked.)

Even in 2013 when Juniac introduced the BEST cabins to replace these in 2014 (TEN YEARS AGO), people had doubts regarding the cirrus seats and wondered if the Best&Beyond product as a whole was good enough to compete with Asian and middle-eastern competitors.

And even back in 2018 I remember friends smiling at me when I told them I was flying on AF cirrus Best cabins, before they were about to brag about their Qsuite experiences. (And yes, even if QR is also a mess with their cabins, their worst seat is at least full flat !).

paris1000

Agree. If I were the OP I'd call and complain bitterly (but tactfully) about being switched to a leisure config. Even if there's no convenient alternative flight, they need to hear about it.

brunos

It is sad to see that AF is still flying those NEV seats a decade later.

I stopped flying AF when other airlines offered flat beds. I'd rather have one stop on QR than the risk of those angled 2x3x2 seats. I was not the only one here and I was doing 4 return trips a year.
It is hard to believe that the small risk still exists. When you see the speed of BA to introduce their needed club suite, and how slow AF is in retrofitting....

gkl

if you are flexible, you could ask to be moved to the KL-flight leaving the same night or AF a day earlier or later. no guarantee that it will work, but asking does not cost anything. in general, no compensation will be paid as it is still a business class cabin.

carnarvon

When you buy the ticket, it says "flat bed". This is not what they provide. There is ground for compensation.

As I asked in the thread about the refurbishment of the 777, would you consider that flying in a cabin equipped with L'Espace 127 seats is no ground for compensation?

etiene

I don't think anyone over on the BA board would be praising the speed of rollout for Club Suite...! It does go to show the complexity of this kind of product upgrade in the airline sector though. QR still have a variety of products, including on frames that will accommodate QSuite. Presumably still bringing up dead last is LH group, with their announced-six-years-ago-and-still-entirely-theoretical new cabins. So theoretical, in fact, that they've had to park new birds because they still haven't got cabins for them! It would be interesting to know what KL have managed to do right in this regard, as their 2-2-2 to 1-2-1 conversions seems to be moving at a pretty impressive pace.

Xandrios

While rules regarding compensation and such may be around the ticketed travel class only, I'd agree with the above. Airlines advertise very specific features of each cabin - changing the aircraft and seat therefore no longer matches what you purchased. The "lie flat" aspect is an important one here, as that is an crucial feature that is being advertised and no longer offered.

However, the risk is that the airline may potentially offer to simply refund you - instead of rebooking. If alternative flights are much more expensive they may prefer to simply refund and sell your seat for extra $$ to another pax.

PLeblond

Clearly stated as "Angle Flat Bed". So it is a flat bed.

It's a Business Class Cabin and the seats lie flat, at an angle. The only "Premium Economy" with seats like that that I know is AC on a few remaining A330s that don't offer 'Signature Business Class' services (like the signature lounge) so they sell it as PY on a few limited routes. And these will be replaced soon so I don't see it as a fair comparison.

This story is ages old all across FT. No, there is no compensation when a new bird gets switched out for older bird. It's always a risk on almost every airline.

Crying foul is futile. I suggested building a bridge and getting over it.

brunos

WHile every board complains about slow retrofit, BA has been much much faster in its retrofits than AF. And that applies also in past retrofits.
Not every airline is equal in retrofit speed

on.the.bowery

Where ? What ... Eh ?

Can we just agree about the fact that the flying community accepted the term Angle Flat Bed is actually hilarious (in the first place). You either have a seat or a bed. There are angles, there are flat lines. But there is no such thing as something flat and angled at the same time. (In geometry, the only angle that you can potentially call a flat line is the straight angle. And even that’s 180°)

Only in this industry would you hear the words ANGLED, BED and FLAT together. Can you imagine Hilton or Marriott advertising angled beds ?

“So, sir, here is your key. You have a non smoking room, on the third floor, with a 120° angled bed. Have a lovely night.”

Me neither. That’s why my following line reads :

BA customers are enjoying flat beds in business class since the year 2000 (and in First class since 1995). That was 14 years before Air France introduced flat beds in Business. And BA customers are still able to enjoy full access flat beds during the rollout of the Club Suite. The product following NEV4, Best&Beyond was introduced 10 years ago.

And that’s probably exactly where the problem is.

On wide bodies ? All flat beds.

All flat beds.

At the end of the day, the OP went on airfrance’s website and saw this… to later find out they were NOT getting this product.

In the words of forum member carnarvon in this post : Selling a flat bed and providing a NEV4 is cheating. It is deceitful.

Can it happen anywhere ? It's still rare. At least on EK or TK, most of the time, you're aware about it at the time of purchase. On some airlines (like SV on Tunis), odd planes are operating only certain routes and airlines (like EY) come with explanations. And the commonality of a wrong practice in a business does not make it more acceptable.