Number of seats in Air France long-haul J and P vs competition
#1
Original Poster
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Number of seats in Air France long-haul J and P vs competition
Here is an interesting analysis of premium and First class capacity and offerings by airlines. Click here for the article
Excerpt of the summary, from the article, focusing on long haul First and Premium seats:
One analysis that is interesting is the absolute number of "true" First Class seats (=on widebody planes), and AF is quite low in that ranking:
I know many (including me) have argued since years that AF feels more like a leisure-oriented airline and does not really understand the needs of business and premium customers and where it does focuses more on the "pleasure" part of its product. These numbers support that argument.
I am sure there'll be a lively discussion based on this... (moderators, feel free to split off into a separate thread)
(Sorry for the horrible formatting of this post, but that is what a numbered list does on this forum)
Excerpt of the summary, from the article, focusing on long haul First and Premium seats:
- On widebodies, first class accounts for 0.6% of seats, and business class for 12.2% of seats.
- On widebodies, Emirates leads by total seat numbers and by premium seat numbers and has the highest number of widebody first class seats.
- SWISS has the highest share of widebody seats in premium cabins and highest share of its widebody seats in first class.
- Emirates
- British Airways
- Korean
- Lufthansa
- Saudia
- Etihad
- Air China
- Swiss
- Singapore Airlines
- China Eastern
- Cathay Pacific
- American
- Japan Airlines
- ANA
- Qantas
- Qatar Airways
- Thai
- Air France
- Swiss
- Korean
- Emirates
- British Airways
- Etihad
- Saudia
- Lufthansa
- Qantas
- Xiamen
- China Eastern
- Air China
- Japan Airlines
- Asiana
- Air India
- Singapore
- Condor (sic)
- Thai
- American
- ANA
- Cathay Pacific
- Air France
- Swiss
- British Airways
- Lufthansa
- Singapore
- United
- Korean Air
- Emirates
- China Eastern
- Qantas
- Japan Airlines
- ANA
- Aeromexico
- Cathay Pacific
- SAS
- American
- Etihad
- Finnair
- Air France
- Delta Airlines
I know many (including me) have argued since years that AF feels more like a leisure-oriented airline and does not really understand the needs of business and premium customers and where it does focuses more on the "pleasure" part of its product. These numbers support that argument.
I am sure there'll be a lively discussion based on this... (moderators, feel free to split off into a separate thread)
(Sorry for the horrible formatting of this post, but that is what a numbered list does on this forum)
#2
Join Date: Jul 2015
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Interesting analysis. Not surprising to see Swiss feature at the top, seeing as they are pretty much the only airline around with 100% fleet with some F availability. Surprised to see BA so high and I would have also expected LH to be lower.
#3
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Lufthansa has brought back the A380, has kept some A340-600s with First Class, and First Class Seats on all Boeing 747-8i. There are eight seats on each one of those planes. A total of 33 planes, compared to AF's 19 planes with only four seats each.
#4
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Detroit, MI
Programs: Delta, JetBlue, Marriott
Posts: 154
I'm not sure about your conclusion:
1. Unless I am missing something, this analysis talks about size of F/J cabins. I guess I don't see why the size of the cabin matters vs. the experience in the cabin.
2. From an airline perspective, a bigger F/J class may not be better if the seats can't be sold. In other words, if most people in F/J are upgrades, that's really not what the airline wants (I know that's what passengers want, but that's a different story). AF may be "right-sizing" F/J based on true demand.
3. Frankly, a big J cabin is a turn-off for me. I find it tends to become an assembly line service from the flight crew (and that's not a dig on the flight crew, it's more a dig on these airlines that increase the size of J class without increasing the staff).
1. Unless I am missing something, this analysis talks about size of F/J cabins. I guess I don't see why the size of the cabin matters vs. the experience in the cabin.
2. From an airline perspective, a bigger F/J class may not be better if the seats can't be sold. In other words, if most people in F/J are upgrades, that's really not what the airline wants (I know that's what passengers want, but that's a different story). AF may be "right-sizing" F/J based on true demand.
3. Frankly, a big J cabin is a turn-off for me. I find it tends to become an assembly line service from the flight crew (and that's not a dig on the flight crew, it's more a dig on these airlines that increase the size of J class without increasing the staff).
#5
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Doesn't LH still run 2-2-2 on most of its J aircraft ? With the few exceptions of aircraft taken over from other airlines. That's inherently more seats. Plus, AF has to offer high density, lower J-count aircraft on certain routes to accomodate the higher Y demand at a reasonable price, I'm thinking the DOM/TOM obligations.
#6
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I'm not sure about your conclusion:
1. Unless I am missing something, this analysis talks about size of F/J cabins. I guess I don't see why the size of the cabin matters vs. the experience in the cabin.
2. From an airline perspective, a bigger F/J class may not be better if the seats can't be sold. In other words, if most people in F/J are upgrades, that's really not what the airline wants (I know that's what passengers want, but that's a different story). AF may be "right-sizing" F/J based on true demand.
3. Frankly, a big J cabin is a turn-off for me. I find it tends to become an assembly line service from the flight crew (and that's not a dig on the flight crew, it's more a dig on these airlines that increase the size of J class without increasing the staff).
1. Unless I am missing something, this analysis talks about size of F/J cabins. I guess I don't see why the size of the cabin matters vs. the experience in the cabin.
2. From an airline perspective, a bigger F/J class may not be better if the seats can't be sold. In other words, if most people in F/J are upgrades, that's really not what the airline wants (I know that's what passengers want, but that's a different story). AF may be "right-sizing" F/J based on true demand.
3. Frankly, a big J cabin is a turn-off for me. I find it tends to become an assembly line service from the flight crew (and that's not a dig on the flight crew, it's more a dig on these airlines that increase the size of J class without increasing the staff).
#7
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Detroit, MI
Programs: Delta, JetBlue, Marriott
Posts: 154
At the end of your post, you stated you argue AF is focusing more on the leisure customer and doesn't know their premium customer. I should have stated "your argument..."
#8
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC -- UA 1K; SPG Platinum; HH Diamond.
Posts: 2,969
I do not share the "conclusion", "argument" or whatever we want to call the statement that: "I know many (including me) have argued since years that AF feels more like a leisure-oriented airline and does not really understand the needs of business and premium customers and where it does focuses more on the "pleasure" part of its product. These numbers support that argument."
I think that the 2nd and 3rd data points are not relevant to that conclusion/argument (share of analysis). The first data point is no surprise, only 4 seats (and the 380s grounded) -- but I would argue that limiting it to 4 seats means it's even more premium. Eg AA has about 20 777-300 with 8 "first class" seats (which by the way they are getting rid of) -- does that make AA more of a premium focused airline than AF?
Turning to my experience, AF is quite the opposite of that "conclusion"/"argument". Flying between NY and Europe, AF is better than LH, LX etc. in premium cabins. AF has the best F of any European carrier. AF J is way better than LH (which is subpar, at best) and better than LX. Also, AF deploys wide bodies only on certain routes where LH and LX used to do so and are now squeezing 200 people in a crappy 320 in fake business class. Prime example is TLV. So again, this shows consideration for premium routes/passengers.
I think that the 2nd and 3rd data points are not relevant to that conclusion/argument (share of analysis). The first data point is no surprise, only 4 seats (and the 380s grounded) -- but I would argue that limiting it to 4 seats means it's even more premium. Eg AA has about 20 777-300 with 8 "first class" seats (which by the way they are getting rid of) -- does that make AA more of a premium focused airline than AF?
Turning to my experience, AF is quite the opposite of that "conclusion"/"argument". Flying between NY and Europe, AF is better than LH, LX etc. in premium cabins. AF has the best F of any European carrier. AF J is way better than LH (which is subpar, at best) and better than LX. Also, AF deploys wide bodies only on certain routes where LH and LX used to do so and are now squeezing 200 people in a crappy 320 in fake business class. Prime example is TLV. So again, this shows consideration for premium routes/passengers.
#11
Original Poster
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I do not share the "conclusion", "argument" or whatever we want to call the statement that: "I know many (including me) have argued since years that AF feels more like a leisure-oriented airline and does not really understand the needs of business and premium customers and where it does focuses more on the "pleasure" part of its product. These numbers support that argument."
I think that the 2nd and 3rd data points are not relevant to that conclusion/argument (share of analysis). The first data point is no surprise, only 4 seats (and the 380s grounded) -- but I would argue that limiting it to 4 seats means it's even more premium. Eg AA has about 20 777-300 with 8 "first class" seats (which by the way they are getting rid of) -- does that make AA more of a premium focused airline than AF?
Turning to my experience, AF is quite the opposite of that "conclusion"/"argument". Flying between NY and Europe, AF is better than LH, LX etc. in premium cabins. AF has the best F of any European carrier. AF J is way better than LH (which is subpar, at best) and better than LX. Also, AF deploys wide bodies only on certain routes where LH and LX used to do so and are now squeezing 200 people in a crappy 320 in fake business class. Prime example is TLV. So again, this shows consideration for premium routes/passengers.
I think that the 2nd and 3rd data points are not relevant to that conclusion/argument (share of analysis). The first data point is no surprise, only 4 seats (and the 380s grounded) -- but I would argue that limiting it to 4 seats means it's even more premium. Eg AA has about 20 777-300 with 8 "first class" seats (which by the way they are getting rid of) -- does that make AA more of a premium focused airline than AF?
Turning to my experience, AF is quite the opposite of that "conclusion"/"argument". Flying between NY and Europe, AF is better than LH, LX etc. in premium cabins. AF has the best F of any European carrier. AF J is way better than LH (which is subpar, at best) and better than LX. Also, AF deploys wide bodies only on certain routes where LH and LX used to do so and are now squeezing 200 people in a crappy 320 in fake business class. Prime example is TLV. So again, this shows consideration for premium routes/passengers.
The conclusion I was trying to draw is a different one, and your argument actually supports it: Air France is good when it comes to making things "pleasant", "feel upmarket". They do that well, their onbaord product is decent, which is why we prefer them to some of the airlines on the list. But a much larger proportion of their capacity and their travelers are not in premium classes, so their operation and their thinking is geared towards processing large numbers of leisure travelers. For AF, premium classes is mostly about a nicer flying experience. But they are not so good in understanding the needs of a frequent/business traveler beyond the onboard product. Try to find working space in one of the lounges - nada, already their PR pictures show people lounging and drinking champagne. Or figure out why the pre-flight dinner service exists only for a handful of flights from the US East Coast - no, only for some late flights. The idea of having dedicated boarding/unboarding buses for J class customers from tarmac positions: doesn't cross their mind, they rather stuff the masses in as few buses as possible. AF doesn't get the concept of people having to be in a certain place at a certain time and are ready to pay top EUR/USD for it - but AF does not offer booking guarantee to its top frequent flyers. Internet on board is patchy. And so on.
It's not because the small number of Premiere seats and the product is nice that AF is a premium-oriented airline. If Monoprix or Safeway were selling a few Vuitton bags in a corner that would still make them a mass-market mid-segment player, not a luxury player.
Exactly. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
#12
Join Date: Jul 2015
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I'd also add that being premium focused and being business focused are also not the same things, despite the monicker of business class.
Premium leisure is a thing (and increasingly so in the last years), and the issues San Gottardo mention are exactly what shows that AF is more leisure focused even in Premium.
The needs of "business" customers differ from "premium leisure" despite both being premium.
Focus on one or the other is orthogonal from focus on eco/premium by scale, and also to a point independent of level of quality of premium product; with the caveat that premium leisure customers are much more sensitive to quality of direct product, and particularly soft product, than premium business customers. Premium business customers OTOH look more at auxilliary offerings like onboard internet, consistency of product, and reliability.
Premium leisure is a thing (and increasingly so in the last years), and the issues San Gottardo mention are exactly what shows that AF is more leisure focused even in Premium.
The needs of "business" customers differ from "premium leisure" despite both being premium.
Focus on one or the other is orthogonal from focus on eco/premium by scale, and also to a point independent of level of quality of premium product; with the caveat that premium leisure customers are much more sensitive to quality of direct product, and particularly soft product, than premium business customers. Premium business customers OTOH look more at auxilliary offerings like onboard internet, consistency of product, and reliability.
#13
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The conclusion I was trying to draw is a different one, and your argument actually supports it: Air France is good when it comes to making things "pleasant", "feel upmarket". They do that well, their onbaord product is decent, which is why we prefer them to some of the airlines on the list. But a much larger proportion of their capacity and their travelers are not in premium classes, so their operation and their thinking is geared towards processing large numbers of leisure travelers. For AF, premium classes is mostly about a nicer flying experience. But they are not so good in understanding the needs of a frequent/business traveler beyond the onboard product. Try to find working space in one of the lounges - nada, already their PR pictures show people lounging and drinking champagne. Or figure out why the pre-flight dinner service exists only for a handful of flights from the US East Coast - no, only for some late flights. The idea of having dedicated boarding/unboarding buses for J class customers from tarmac positions: doesn't cross their mind, they rather stuff the masses in as few buses as possible.