bodory

All of this reminds me the Air Inter Europe / Air France Europe branding fiasco.

By the way, thanks orbitmic and San Gottardo for the entertainment you provide me on a Monday morning by reading this thread

orbitmic

Yes, and you are very right about the whole Air Inter Europe/Air France Europe reference. "Plus ca change...."

olivedel

Despite the fun I had reading all the posts of this thread (Special congrats to orbitmic and San Gottardo, and back to the point of the topic, I think that the extension of HOP! for all the short-haul ORY-based network is a (very) bad news for us, Frequent Flyers.

• SkyTeam frequent flyers who are not FB members are the most penalized : A5 is not part of SkyTeam. Therefore, Elite+ benefits are not guaranteed. And miles = 0.
• For FB members, it means Level miles only on MaxiFlex/Abonnés fare.

Frankly, even if ORY is closer to where I live in Paris, I will switch my business to CDG as much as I can even for domestic flights.

orbitmic

I fully agree with you. I would add that my experiences with Hop! this year have been underwhelming. AF is effectively hoping that passengers will continue paying a premium (which will not go down, since operational costs won't) to fly AF with even less benefits than before.

As brunos already mentioned, U2 has already become an increasingly preferable choice for non-flex tickets for a number of reasons: tickets are typically significantly cheaper, all tickets are changeable, free same-day earlier return (albeit with much less frequency than AF), seats can be selected for a low fee, on time performance is significantly better, hand luggage weight is unlimited which is not the case with AF, and soon, EU regulations will kick in that will make U2 obliged to accept a small personal item in addition to the hand luggage, etc. To me, AF continues to take things away from passengers without either giving anything in return. It claims that it does so because economically, it does not have a choice, but it also makes it obvious that it is not ready to make any effort on its own side to reduce non-passenger-service-related costs. This is smug at best, unrealistic in all likeliness, and personally, I have no doubt that this will continue to come round to bite them in the backside, and it will all be their own fault.

San Gottardo

(Bolding by me)

No, AF isn't even honest enough to say that the reason it takes away things from passengers is its dire financial situation. It has the chutzpa to tell its customers that it's all an improvement for them! And when even with the greatest marketing creativity they cannot pretend to have created any benefits for their customers (for instance, the NEO seats) they claim that they have at least done something beneficial for the environment ("seats are lighter, planes use less fuel, which is great for the environment").

I think the latest person to leave the company will be their spin doctor. They may have another series of crashes, pilots go on strike because they are asked to be awake when they have the controls during final approach, their computer system is infected by a virus that instead of selling plane tickets sends customers concert tickets for Chantal Goya, the entire board and management resign, the firm will go bankrupt, everybody is made redundant - there still will be the marketing department claiming that Air France has just done something great for the environment by reducing the carbon footprint of their employee base, and something fantastic for their customers by reducing the complexity of Flying Blue thanks to taking Air France out of the program. And then when even the marketing guys are gone their IT system goes zombie and sends out Flying Blue offers of the month for cheap Business Class flights to Quimper.

bodory

Probably their spin doctor is also working for their IT.

orbitmic

That's a fair point - I meant that privately, they will admit to all this being a cost reducing exercise but indeed, it never features in their communication (although in fairness, I don't think other airlines do it either) and indeed, they always try to frame everything in the "improvement" language (in fact, informally, they tried it on NEO too: "people don't like it when the passenger in front reclines into them - hurray!" ) but again, sadly, this part seems to be fairly universal in the airline industry. I would personally prefer any of them to shut up and stop insulting our intelligence but as you say, spin doctors do seem keen on the perception that customers are donkeys who will swallow the most insincere of descriptions...

NickB

Indeed and I do not think that this is limited to airlines but could equally apply to all sorts of retail industries.
Given the generality of the practice, I suspect that this must be what they teach in marketing classes; any change, however detrimental, must be presented as positive in consumer communications. The spectre of "doing a Ratner" must loom large, with a fear of antagonising customers if you do not present your products as always being the best thing since sliced bread and new versions always an improvement on the former.
Modern commercial communications only have a rather distant relation with truthfulness: not total strangers but more in the second-cousin-twice-removed degree of proximity than parents, sons and daughters or siblings.

orbitmic

^

olivedel

Sometimes, one does not have the choice. The travel policy of my company asks us to stick to AF/KL/DL for all flights whenever possible, and in all cases when the cost difference is less than €200 in Y for intra-Europe flights out of Paris.

Henry III

And there, Cher orbitmic, you show your true inspirational value: the next 'improvement' will likely be the replacement of the much-bemoaned "Salé ou Sucré?" with, "Big crunchy apple, or bag of oats?"

-- Henry

orbitmic

I'll admit that if the "sucre sale" was replaced by a carrot or an apple, I would indeed see it as an improvement, whether it means that I grow donkey ears or not!

olivedel

This week-end to ZRH and back, I only had the choice between salé and nothing. "A refreshing initiative to decrease fat and sugars in the meals served in Economy Class. Thanks to that enhancement, AF helps in the Global flight against obesity".

orbitmic

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Hop! Air France made you pay for even that within years or even months. "Hop! AF participate in economic growth"

Nico40

Well, I'm a bit more optimistic (maybe naïve ?). Such a move would be a very bad signal for FB relevance as a loyalty program. AF may let A5 not to use it in its current network (quite limited in terms of pax numbers, with scarce competition) in order to help the start-up and reduce fees. But not offering a single mile on CDG-BOD or CDG-MRS whereas even SNCF has been trying to upgrade its own program ? If AF cuts so much of FB value, then they're totally desperate. And in that case, welcome back to the Gourgeon years, when all the strategy was about reducing services quicker than costs.

Or to that wonderful EZY Plus card, which even for a fee (180€ a year) offers all seats for free and priority boarding. Only lounges are missing, but honestly, is the Patio worth a visit ?