orbitmic

We all wait to see how good AF's new J product will be since they promised a 'best in class' experience in J and P starting in 2014, better than everyone else including SQ.

However, several of us have noted that the competition is everything but passive. In the past few years, US airlines strongly improved their J products. Now it seems to be the turn of European ones. I have already mentioned (as others have) that the new AZ J ("Magnifica") is truly excellent, and heads and shoulders above AF in terms of both hard and soft product. I also mentioned in the past that I find the soft product on OS quite exceptional (fantastic food, great coffee menu, excellent wine lists, proper sheet on night flights, etc) but their hard product was on par with the current AF one. Well, it seems that this is changing. airlineroute.net has reported that from December, OS are introducing new cabins in J and Y, with the J being an alternation of 1-2-1 and 2-2-2 rows on their 777s and 1-2-1 on every row on their 767s. I have no details of the new seats but considering OS's track record, I would imagine that it will be excellent. With their soft product, this will make for another outstanding competitor. TK has gone fully flat but with 2-3-2 on their 777s and 2-2-2 on their 340s and 330s (like AF). They also have a great soft product so if they decide to improve and move to a 1-2-1 a la AZ or equivalent they will also be hard to beat.

Zembla

Excellent idea to launch this thread. Great way to communicate our expectations to AF, and I think that the initial comparison you launched is very good.

There is one important aspect to add. Best in class is also about price. If the current state of J on AF would be half the price of the major part of the competition it would be massively competitive and could actually be considered an excellent product.

Having said that. If, hypothetically, they could pull of such a price difference todays J on AF would be better placed as W (Premium ECO) ;-)

MichielR

The new OS C seats are identical to the SN and LX seats. Interestingly, this will give three LH daughters a far better product than their mother, arguably even after new C is installed on LHs fleet...

I do not think BA will await AFKL and LH new C and be forced to move.

That said, if AF would get a C seat like the current SQ (note they have announced an upgrade to both C and F cabins!), or new CX that would be a huge step forward already. Problem is they raised expectations and we are adding to it :-)

brunos

The new LH seat looks very much like the nex CX seat (same seat as on US air and will be installed on AA).
I love the BA bed, especially on their 747 UD. And perfect seat if traveling with my wife. It is already their second generation, so I doubt that BA will launch a new seat, maybe just some cosmetic changes.

El Puerco Volante

LX - very thin,lays on the ground,short
New LH, BA, TK - no privacy, way too close to other passengers and need to climb over from most seats.
Any herringbone layouts a-la VS - only for those who enjoy a perfect view of the feet of fellow passengers for 12 hours..

The only proper C seat on the market is SQ's. Great privacy, full flat - just perfect.
WY C comes very close, but with less privacy.
Well, and some seats on NZ in the nose of 747 can be half-decent.

Haven't tried EK C on A380 yet, since I like their F and always travel in it. But looks quite OK too.

I can't imagine AF coming up with anything close to SQ. Just given their track record and attitude. And even if they would come up with a copy of SQ seat - they would never get close to the service SQ provides in the air.

So I still can't imagine why somebody would buy a C seat on AFKL. OK, there may be cases where you have no alternative, but in most cases you do have one, just need to keep your eyes open a bit ;-)

Regards,

El Puerco Volante.

orbitmic

But do you love the BA J seat especially on the 747 UD or do you love the atmosphere of the 747 UD. I mean the seat on the 747 UD is exactly the same as it is on every other BA J cabin (except 767 which still has the 1st generation of CW and the LCY A318 which has its own version) but the 747 UD is small enough that the cabin feels rather intimate while, to be honest, while I would choose BA's seat over AF any day, the BA J cabins ("with the exception of the UD of 744") has a bit of a 'factory feel' in my view, and if you have an aisle - or worse one of the two 'middle seats' on a 777 or a lower deck 747, honestly, this is not a very pleasant cabin.

What I mean is that while I also very much like travelling on BA's UD 747s - all the more so that I am a window person and in CW, window seats are very private if you want them to be, there is no specific 'seat recipe' that could be used and replicated on other aircrafts, either by BA or by someone else (that opposed to, say, SQ or EK which effectively have different seat models on different aircraft types).

It is also the case that the % of 747s is slowly but surely declining. For the first time this year it represents less than 50% of their long haul fleet and the proportion will continue to decline over the coming years.

So we are left with a case of BA 'new CW' which is indeed a second version but one which is already a few years old. It has the great advantage of being far more economical to the airline than, say, AZ's layout, but for the passenger in most cases (I would say every case except window and possibly UD 747 aisles) I would say that the cabin is significantly less pleasant than AZ, LX, SN and the forthcoming OS for example. As BA have traditionally been market leaders (in terms of taking initiative before other people do), my guess is that they may indeed be looking at ideas for a new cabin as we speak, because if they don't in 2 or 3 years they will very possibly be below local competition, which has simply never happened to BA in J for as long as I can remember.

MichielR

SQ bulkheads are good but the other ones are not so great IMO. SQ seats are just not long enough for me at 6'1". I find the LX seats long enough, unlike you. And LX has a consistent product, unlike SQ where you can still find an angled flat a la AF, KL or LH.

I love the (old) CX seat, haven't tried the new one yet. It is great for overnighters, where it is dark and all i want is a good bed. It is a nice seat On other flights indeed because the only good view it offers is of the IFE.

BAs CW seat is good if I can get UD and the extra room seats. A normal C seat on the B777 is not my preference for BA.

I tried EY recently and find it a very good seat, almost worth breaking a long flight in two shorter parts.

We all have diferent preferences I guess. And that makes AFs ambition both more difficult and easier - they won't come up with the product that beats all in everyone's eyes...

And yes, I avoid AFKL when I can. It has been a year since my last long hauls with them.

brunos

Orbitmic, you are quite right that I like the atmosphere and the space of the UD. it feels like F and plenty of space. Actually, I have only flown 747 UD, but extensively so (say 50 times) in old and new flat beds.
Window seats are magnificent because of the space afforded by the lockers on the side of the fuselage which can be used for storage and as tablets. Plus great privacy. I usually get rows 62 or 64 with plenty of space beyond your feet. This seating is costly for BA as they can fit fewer seats than the herringbone seating. Indeed, I will badly miss the 747s when they get retired.

As far as flat beds in J, there are three major types of seating arrangement: Stacked (� la LX, EY, AZ, DL 767 and others), herringbone (� la VS, NZ, old CX, DL 777 and many others), reverse herringbone (� la US air, new CX, new LH). Within each category there are variations (in part due to the aircraft, in part due to the airline choices).
Then there are two "unusual" seats: BA and SQ. SQ takes slightly more space (but I fail to find much difference in SQ seats on the longhaul aircrafts that I have flown) and is the best, especially in you sit on the front row of a cabin. Better than the three other conventional flat beds. But I still love the BA 747 UD, eventhough food/wine/service is not as good as SQ and TV screen considerably smaller.
I have never flown Oman (WY) but their seats look impressive.

I agree with El Puerco Volante that AF will never come up with anything ressembling SQ seat.

ClipperDelta

Delta has also been using the reverse herringbone seat on their 744s and will be putting them on their A330s as well. IMHO, the 744 UD experience on Delta with these seats is one of the better ones out there now - there are only 14 individual single seats facing toward the window up there with two flight attendants...privacy doesn't get much better than that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlxLOKOv7Vg

brunos

so DL will have herringbone (777), reverse herringbone (747) and stacked (767), but all flat beds. I have flown their 777 herringbone and loved the seat. Herringbones on 777 tend to be nice because they angle forward more than on 747s which are wider. And their seat has many interesting ideas, including for pairs seating together.
The UD of DL looks nice and truly a F-class feeling although the number of seats seems more like 20 than 14. What I do not like in reverse-herringbones is the lack of privacy and the aisle noise. In herringbones your head is far from the aisle and very quiet. With reverse-herringbones, your head is right next to the aisle and you get disturbed by the foot stomping, noise and even wind of people passing in the aisle.
I have experienced both on CX. In heringbones (old CX) I do not care about the far vision of people seating across the aisle and their feet. I am immersed in my little private cubicle and TV. In the new seats, the atmosphere looks more open but the privacy is vastly reduced and more-importantly often disturbed during sleep. So I find them more pleasant for sitting, but definitely less good for sleeping.
As MichielR was saying, it is all a matter of taste.

Anyway, very impressive how DL is introducing excellent seats throughout the fleet.

orbitmic

Indeed. I'm always surprised to often read people bashing DL J and saying that it is less good than European airlines. I really can't see a case to say that. DL J product has progressively become very good and when they complete the removal of their last craddle and angled lie flat seats (which I believe they will do far sooner than what many people would think) and complete their transition to fully flat they will be one of the standard leaders on the transatlantic market. Like you though, I'm surprised that they go for three entirely different types of seats on their different aircraft types. I wonder if the same manufacturer is making all three seat types for them and if not whether they managed to get the same economic worth as if they had gone for a single type (I presume so otherwise they wouldn't have but it seems counter-intuitive to me)

orbitmic

You don't have to believe me on this, but I honestly think that 747 UD is just a very different experience from the 'regular' BA J on other aircrafts (or lower deck). Like you I like it a lot, and if flying BA on a destination with multiple aircrafts will specifically choose a 747 flight even if at a less convenient time. Like you I almost always manage 62 or 64, but even this week when I had to change my flight at the last minute and got 60A, it was still very good. I have also flown their 777 (both -200 and the newest -300) quite extensively and I really find it quite mediocre by fully flat standards. I'd rate AZ or DL or NZ on the same aircraft type much much higher.

brunos

eh, eh, why do you think I did over 50 flights on the UD and none elsewhere? Because I believe you and that is confirmed by just walking there.

Still, I would think that windows seats downstairs or on 777 are reasonable flat beds.

brunos

I agree with you regarding DL. As I mentioned in another thread, I was quite seduced by their whole service on an Asian flight: from checkin, to lounge, to onboard service.
Having close friends in seat manufacturing, they state that each aircraft has its own optimization regarding flat beds. So DL approach makes sense especially with the former NW fleet of 747s.

K�lner

I’m not a real Frequent Flyer like the most of you, but I was on the Air France A380 around ten times and I like the Affaires Class! I don’t really see there any big problems!? The cabin looks nice and I can sleep very well in this seat.

There are only two things I really do not like on the Affaires Class:

1. You can’t choose your Appetizer! Why? I think some Years ago you could choose between two Appetizer, why not anymore? I don’t like Foie Gras and Fish, so please let me choose something else!

2. The IFE-Menu on the A380 is so slow! We live in year 2012 and there should be no problem to give us a fast running IFE.