Not to be _too_ pedantic (me!?) but the "obvious" reason AY can't post them is because it's AC policy not to.

While I agree with the rest of your post, those are reasons why AC should allow it, not reasons why Andrew should post.

=aw

Well, let's see. They've made significant cutbacks to the program every single year for the past 8 years.

What makes you think this year will be any different?

And actually I'm a very optimistic person. But I'm also a realist.

The recession?

Good point. My Bad.

Yes, the reason why AY can't/won't post the details is that he cannot, either because it's AC's policy to not yet make the details publicly available and/or a that employees are not allowed to divulge that information.

The question then is why AC won't yet publish the information.

Given that the program has effectively been "gutted" over the past 8 years, what is left to "gut?"

As I suggested in my first post, if there are cutbacks, or even if there are simply no improvements, the stated reason (if one is given) will probably be because "times are tough."

As someone else pointed out earlier, if you're purely a domestic traveller, alliance benefits don't count for much. (Particularly since you can get MLL access and priority check-in for CAD $175.)

But if your travel is split between domestic and international, you're still limited on your domestic benefits, though you might be able to use some benefits of the alliance carrier while travelling internationally.

Even if your travel was stictly international, there are all sorts of complications and extra inconveniences. If you wanted to join UA's program, you'd most likely have to connect through the US in each direction, adding immigration fees and the usual border crossing hassles, and there are fewer departing flights to any given destination. It's also harder to earn partner miles when your home program is in another country (note the allowances AP had to make for UK members and expiriing points.)

Because of those extra impositions and limitations, for many people who want something more than and economy seat to their destination, there is no real competition.

Which I suppose is a way to say that perhaps while AC might have some competiton, Aeroplan has much, much less, and therefore can easily chop away benefits as if they had no competition.

People have been saying that for years on end as well.

But you're right, I suppose they could always go the way of AIG.

On the other hand, even if they do go "away" there is still serious competiton in the US, so it's a simple and trivial matter to simply hop on board the next FFP program. After all, if UA goes under, where will their serious FFers go? Most likely to the program that offers them the best deal to match their status. Perhaps they might even go as far as KLM did a few years ago and even match points balances.

Wow, some pretty passionate views considering we're talking about a customer loyalty program to put things in perspective.

These programs cost a lot of money (though Aeroplan is the poster child for how to make revenue out of it), and you need to gauge the effectiveness in topline/bottom line lift, and or other salient metrics.

Many examples come to mind:
HMV abandoned their loyalty program years ago because they had no way of knowing if it increased traffic, conversion, basket size etc., and they didn't track information.

Some loyalty programs require you to pay to belong, one time or ongoing. The rationale is that if it's free, and you have 50 million members, 20 million of whom rarely purchase with you or may never again, that's an awful lot of overhead. If you charge people a nominal amount, and provide meaningful benefits, then you're going to get the real repeat customers.

I have been SE since the demise of CP, and I have noticed an erosion of benefits, but also positive changes, and I believe they have also adapted to market conditions.

Some changes, like personalized upgrade certifications, I view as positive. It effectively removes a secondary market that shouldn't really be there.

Some of the other changes have meant more availability for awards this year, and they did add back a lower fare class mid way through the year.

The addition of carriers to the alliance over the years has made it much easier to qualify and redeem as well.

So, instead of speculating and complaining, let's wait and see. I'm certain there will be changes, and perhaps, some of them will (or will be perceived to be) negative year over year for some/many people.

Conversely, I suspect loads will drop, especially next summer with less leisure travel and reduced business travel, and it may well be very difficult for AC to sell a lot of J seats. So, just maybe, they will make it easier, since the marginal COGS is likely minimal to bump a pax from coach to business.

AC isn't perfect, neither is any other airline or business. At the same time, your best customers generally provide a disproportionate amount of revenue, often at higher margins, so it's unlikely they will want to make radical changes.

With industry consolidation, possibly more open skies agreements, and the consideration of the entire *A, I think any changes will be gentle.

ckc

The change I explicity refer to in that post (changes to upgrade awards) do not take effect until July 1, 2009. That 4 days less than 8 months.

Which I mentioned later in that post, and further noted that the co-pay is reduced or eliminated for some (higher) fares.

Air Canada's equiavlent is the make you pay a higher fare up front, just for the opportunity to gamble that you'll get an upgrade, with no guarantees. In other words, with UA, if you get the upgrade you pay more than you might otherwise. With AC, you pay more than you might otherwise, then hope your upgrade comes through.

I have only ever upgraded from J/C to F on UA. And when I've done it, I've seen others doing it as well. (You know, when you're pacing nervously in the gate area waiting for your name to be called. I was once paged with 3 others, and we all got our "gate" upgrades into F. Given that you cannot upgrade from Y to F on a 3 class plane, I can reasonably assume that they paid J and upgraded to F.)

Regardless of how many passengers use this benefit, it's still a benefit, and probably particularly so to the most frequent flyers. Furthermore, it's not just J to F upgrades that are co-pay free, but also from some econo fares to the next class of service.

I'm not certain what you're getting at, but if there's upgrade space available when you request the points (and maybe cash) upgrade, you get it on the spot, regardless of the fare you're paying. In the case where you're waitlisted for an upgrade, why wouldn't they upgrade a T before a B, particularly if the airline could squeeze more dollars and more points out of someone who's paid a lower fare, instead of fewer points and maybe no dollars out of someone who has already paid the higher fare?

"Elites" (or the equivalent) also get upgrade certificates on UA.

And I assure you I would most certainly not be complaining if AC started offering points upgrades. I'd probably be first in line to buy them.

This thread is not about defending UA, or which program is better (well, at least it wasn't supposed to be.) It was about the fact that AC regularly announces cutbacks either post facto, or only when they've been forced by public pressure (primarily FT) to announce changes earlier. In fact they only started pre-announcing the upcoming year's program after a big flap on FT, and even then only originally announced the changes on FT, and not to the general public.

Even now, an AC employee seems to have implied that they already know what the program is going to be, and are yet still not announcing the details.

Why would that be?

What? No upgrades are guaranteed and that includes UA. There is no such thing as if you get your upgrade with UA, then you pay and if not, then you don't pay. If you use miles to upgrade an international trip on UA, you pay for UA's H or higher and then request the upgrade. If your upgrade does not clear, UA does not refund the difference between H and the lowest fare to you. Same goes for UA's SWU, you buy a fare W or higher for an international trip and then request the upgrade, if you don't clear, you don't get $ back. UA's upgrade instruments are miles or SWU, AC's upgrade instrucments are SWU or SSWU. No such thing as guaranteed upgrade. One can easily check upgrade inventory before deciding if they will buy the lower fares (which are non-refundable on both AC or UA) and waitlisting for an upgrade if it's unavailable. Buying a nonrefundable fare and waitlisting for an upgrade is your choice, AC or UA doesn't force you to do so.

My prediction is that nothing big changes at all. I think threshold levels will stay the same and the packages will be about the same. It was about the same last year, except that Y/M/U fares increased on many INTL routes, although that was AC not AP.

At last check, not all booking classes are upgradeable on an International flight no matter what your tier is or whether you're using SWU or miles or miles + copay.


Not for international. Must use points. While AC Elites have the opportunity to upgrade from lower fare classes using SSWU (even if it's just 1 trip a year) and confirmed at time of booking for Y,M,U using cert. How does this option exist on UA for Elites equivalent?

That's your implication. Program is not 100% set despite you insisting that it is. When it's ready to go, it will be annouced.

Are you kidding?

In my position at our company, I often am aware of changes to our loyalty programs, promotions and sales, and other material and immaterial changes prior to broad public knowledge.

There are some seemingly obvious reasons why employees can not and should not share information, some of which you have already stated.

There is a process for public disclosure that needs to be followed. I know at my current company and previous employer's you'd certainly be subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. If you have a role at a public company with access to material information, you face possible other repurcussions as well.

It's not Andrew's role or responsibility to be PR person for AC (though he does so quite well for us on FT on an informal basis), and we need to respect that.

No, that's why I "guessed."

But let me ask you, would you rather pay 467,000 points and fees of CAD $558.35 for a last minute J ticket on YVR-SYD, or 270,000 points (220,000 if booked by December 31) and fees of USD $110.30 + USD $100 for short notice ticketing - about CAD $247 all in?

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that you'd choose the UA option, every time.