Gaz, your point is about as succinct as it gets... I can't think of anyone who wouldn't prefer to hold an upgrade in advance over gate lottery.

[QUOTE=Fermat]No because many many people do get advance upgrades and many many more get them at the gate...but I think the general terms of upgrades are "space available" and sometimes that's not known until flt time.

I didn't misss your point at all; for instance if you had been booked on 868 this am you would have gotten your upgrade in advance at your 'window" as it was still showing I6 at 7am today. The HKG flt was not and was oversold. And BTW there were upgrade stdby pax for 868 even with the flt having been wide open all week an none for the HKG flt.

see above.

Ac does NOT zero out the I class bucket per se;the yield management system does it and that's what needs adjusting. Don't forget that AC ony introduced I class less than six months ago and in typical AC style they proably did not have their data base quite set up to monitor it.

In order to forcast the database needs historical data.

Without the historical data the system works no better than the instant experts on FT that stick their finger in the air and yell 'GIMME'.

Don't believe for a second that AC is not managing I space. When it was first introduced I was always equal to C. Slowly that changed to I almost always being less than C and very often equal to zero.

I think that AC is purposely making it less likely that many status (especially P and E) cannot upgrade in advance. On 5 out of 5 transatlantic flights I have taken this year, I was zeroed out. However on all 5 my ugprade was confirmed in advance off the waitlist without any opening of I. I was told once that the flight controllers watch for SE's on the waitlist and will upgrade them. I don't know if this is true, but that is my experience.

Now that you have mentioned it, that is a benefit that should be taken away.

Them's fightin' words boy!!

I don't know what it takes to make you understand the yield management system airlines use. simply put flts get to a certain sell point and their data base tells them there is likely hood they will sell X more seats and it then closes off things like C/I class but leaves anywhere from 1 to 9 seats for sale in each "revenue" class until they hit their oversell limits

If AC/AE continues to offer upgrade certificates as one of the benefits of higher tier AE membership, then reasonable no. of "I" seats must be made available (in advance and last minute at the gate when there are surplus unsold business class seats) regardless of the yield management system. It's a cost of doing business. It's the cost for having such a FF programme. AC cannot have the marketing guys on the one hand promoting come fly with us, when you reach P, E, SE, you get certificates for complimentary upgrade when the yield management guys say, wait, we can sell those seats at full fare, why let someone fly in business at the price of economy!

If the certificate says with Y or M fare, one could reserve the upgrade at any time, there must be reasonable expectation to be able to do so, including sponsorship of the travel companion. Therefore, "I" should start at 2 rather than 1 as it appears to be the case for many international flights.

You wouldn't work in any of the businesses I know with that attitude. Profit is first........everything else is second because w/o profit there is no AC.

I also think this should be stated--either that, or put a word other than "confirmed" on the itinerary/PNR/wherever this information is kept for segments in I class.

If you're confirmed in Y or J on a paid ticket, and you're denied boarding/downgraded from J, you'll usually be compensated in some way. The word "confirmed" means something in those contexts. If you're "confirmed" in I, there is a chance--however small--that you will not be flying in J, and you may not be compensated if that happens.

Whether AC is being unfair to those few FFs in I who do have to downgrade, particularly after paying for a Y or M fare to get the instant upgrade, is a different question. But if AC makes it clear that upgrading to I class is subject to space availability, and that space availability is not only a function of the literal availability in I (ie, may also be a function of aircraft downgrade, last minute paid J walkons, etc.), then the FFs who lose out won't have much to complain about.

You all seem to forget that by buying an M or Y fare you are able to UG with a SWU cert. in lieu of a SSWU. So there is value there. Getting downgraded is a bummer no doubt but I don't think it happens much in reality. In fact for E's and SE's it's probably statistically close to zero and most likely less than one per cent..

and what's probably happening (contrary to all of those conspiracy believers out there) is that the lack of baseline data to tune the application means that it's probably a bit more "aggressive" at protecting a potential revenue seat than what we've come to expect. That's plausible.

But back to what I think is the root of the problem... it's expectations. I think that Air Canada (right or wrong) has established expectations in us that by holding an upgrade certificate, it means upgrade space is available. By turning it into a "space available" program smacks of deceptive marketing... or bait and switch.

"Here's an upgrade coupon - you can confirm an upgrade 72 hrs in advance with an applicable fare basis" = BAIT

"whoops, our system zeroed out the upgrade class to protect potential revenue because we don't have enough experience in tuning it. Sorry" = SWITCH

I've been using AC upgrades with considerable frequency since the concept of upgrade certificates was introduced. I've probably confirmed upgrades 200+ times. Only once out of those 200+ times was my J seat unavailable (due to an unscheduled 320->319 equipment downgrade).

I think the matter of a confirmed upgrade seat being unavailable is simply a non-issue.

Without customer, there is no profit.

[QUOTE=Fermat]Ah, light bulbs turning on

All airlines do this and people have the same expectations with them. Ac needs an outlet for those who don't get I and an E plus type of seat could be the answer. No airline will give up seats specifically for upgrade classes if they can sell the seat at higher prices


Only on a seat available basis

Well you can do what some do and buy Discounted C or J to be sure. you are asking for a freebie to be guaranted because your employer won't pay for a higher priced seat.So, you blame the airline?