parnel

[QUOTE=Overwing][COLOR=Navy]My musical tastes never change.

It turned out to be uneconomical in today's environment would be my answer;why you call it greed when everything is open in the industry is beyond my comprehension......it makes me thinkt the greedis on your side of the fence and you don't really care about the employersability to meet his numbers. In fact you would not complain if they took it from other union members in other parts of the company or from management.

Not that I recall...you left in a snit earlier today but that was your call


Everything in life has a price;if they step in and piss off the other guys you think that should be free...c'mon

. Unlike what is going on now in the union....c'mon again who are you trying to kid here.

exAC

Kripe, if you count it that way, I have worked 480 hours this month already!!!! What a load of......

Agincourt

Oh hahaha, of course, I agree with you on your first statement. Well, do I really look that serious with rolly eyes?!?

yyznomad

I think the rolly eye thing is used here more in a negative POV. Like I said in another post, we need an emoticon with wrinkles and hot man boobs.

Agincourt

WHY?!? Because we think negatively? Anyway, back on topic, lets hope the best will come out of this.

Lucy2001

A number of posters here seem to have a fixation on the "80 hour" workmonth. Pilots are only paid from the time the brakes are released until they are set again at destination. As a relatively junior, but older AC pilot, my schedule includes multi-leg trips over what I consider quite long days. We begin flight planning duties 1:15 prior to push-back, and typically I do 3-4 flights a day. Each flight is separated by 1-2 hours of waiting time on average. Generally the company has me "at work" for 11-12 hours per day, but they can keep us on the go for up to 16, for which I get credited only 5 to 6 hours of pay and I do this for 4 consecutive days before I get a required rest period. Since CCAA, I also have 10 days less holidays per year, give 5 days per year "free" for the required simulator checks and recurrent training and 2 days per year for a medical and, unlike all other AC employees, I renew my security pass on my days off as well. Maybe some AC pilots are shopping in Beijing or sipping latte in Rome, but I'm 50 and still tossing on a lumpy mattress at the YYC Coast Hotel trying to get a few hours of shut-eye before the 4am alarm. Great life for a handful at the very top (and very end) of their careers, but it's a long, tough go waiting for one's seniority to finally kick in.

LeSabre74

Careful, now you'll unleash the: "if you don't like it get another job crowd" Funny some don't seem to see a parallel between wanting to work for an airline and wanting to obsessively discuss one

I'm amazed at how few seem to pick up stranger's point that mgmt. bears some responsibility for this. It was no secret from RM's book that he really, really liked the Boeing product. Why weren't these new contract conditions negotiated as part of CCRA? Surely someone must have said "wait a minute, the pilot groups already pi$$ed as a result of merge and now this bankruptcy, maybe going back for more concession later might not be such a good idea".

Don't get me wrong, I think the mgmt team has done some great things, and not letting ACPA steamroll them should have been done by previous AC administrations. A stand had to be made sometime, too bad the Boeings are a casualty. Let's console ourselves with the fact that any 767 can look like the Taj Mahal if enough refurb money is poured into it!

Hogtowner

I once asked a senior AC pilot (a friend of my parents) why they got paid the big bucks. He replied "I get it because a situation may arise, maybe only once in my career, in which I might have only 60 seconds to make decisions that if I am wrong will result in a couple of hundred people dying".

That was true back in the 1970s when I asked that question, and I believe it is true today.

I also wanted to chime in about the 80 hour work month. Those are the brakes off to brakes on hours, so aren't directly comparable to those of who fly desks for a living. Also, do you really want a guy driving you at 35,000 ft who is working the 160th hour of his month and the airport he is just about to land at is experiencing bad weather? I don't.

Just my C$0.02

blackjack-21

Lucy2001,

Thanks for the informative reply on a typical pilot's day. I'm surprised that you don't get paid for the time spent flight planning, or even when you do your checklist aboard the aircraft before engine start. Is this typical of most airlines, or just AC's requirements?

Still, as many here have indicated, they're not too happy with the union's voting down of the new aircraft. It may also have a negative effect on many jobs in the future, as many older aircraft are phased out (I'm thinking B767's here, eventually even after the refurbishing, some 5 or 6 years from now) and AC finds itself with a smaller fleet of nothing but aging Airbus aircraft (some not too efficient, per the A345's), as many other major carriers move ahead with the newer Boeing purchases. Personally, I hope this isn't the union's final word on the new aircraft purchase.

bj-21.

exAC

In an 80 hour block month at AC the stats proved that on average it worked out to only 70 hours of 'stick' time due to displacements by other pilots (and still get paid), daily pairing guarantees, monthly pairing guarantee's, cancelled flights (still get paid), and flying under sked (AC pilots get 'sked or better', block times are predicated on being ontime or early 70% of the time).

Now subtract vacations and sick time and the actual 'stick time' of a pilot comes in at an average that is less than 65 hours per month on an 80 hour block. For a senior pilot with more vacation time it was even less.

Q Shoe Guy

Lucy 2001, thanks for a view into your typical day. As Blackjack-21 said many of us are taken aback with the outcome of this vote , and the impact it has on us all. I feel badly for you that at 50 you still can't get the routes that you want to fly! How would you propose fixing this situation so that your group can move forward to find some agreement ?

blackjack-21

This thread from the Newstand forum on FT:

http://64.78.185.85/forum/showthread.php?t=444788

Will there be another vote?

bj-21.

parnel

Lucy, while I respect your opinion and report the fact remains you do not work the hours most of us do in the real world. In fact many pilots have enough time off to be in other businesses.

Simulator checks and medicals are conditions of your employment and should not necessarily be paid. Most people don't get paid to show up healthy for work and lots need further education on their own time to keep ahead of the competition for their jobs. Yours is union protected and the stick time you are paid for includes all that other stuff you need to do. Many people would love your salary and working conditions.

What about most of us here who travel in our businesses. We mostly travel early morning or late at night but almost always on our own time and if overseas most likely spend weekends on the road. And we are expected to work the hours necessary to get our job done and for most of us that means 50 hour weeks at least not 80 hour months.

And, you do have a choice of where you work;if AC is the wrong place you can move on.....its not a slave factory. The mindset the union sets you u with is that AC owes you the job you have and in the past you,through your union, were able to dictate your terms of employment. Those days seem to be over,thankfully, as the airline economics have changed to bring fares down to realistic levels like all other businesses. You've come to the wrong place for sympathy but welcome to FT in any event. The consumer is now king as there is competition for our loyalty.

parnel

[QUOTE=LeSabre74]Why not its competitive out there;let them go to Ws or some other non union carrier where they have to work eal hours for a living. Your other comment bears no resemblance to reality,which is nothing new from you.

Management acted very responsibility in this matter as the majority have pointed out;we did see and note strangers comment and countered it very well I think. Milton has a big job to seize back control of the workplace agenda from the unions but it is absolutely necessary in order to be profitable since union thugs bear no responsibility in this area.


What does Canada customs and revenue agency(CCRA) have to do with this? Maybe you mean CCAA
How would he have gotten competitive pricing if this was out there before deciding......it was also discussed in detail many posts ago

Obvously you haven't read over 200 posts here on the subject

parnel

Ah you speak the truth like management therefore you are suspect.

Good informative post.