LeSabre74

It's ridiculous. As someone said, I'd rather have our immigration people doing the first check, rather than have them come through a third country. If loads were good, its a shame AC has to pass up this opportunity. Maybe the Feds should pay them compensation.

Didn't AC used to fly to Moscow in the days it was the heart of the Evil Empire? I think David Orchard was right. We've given up way too much for free trade

BA

With all do respect, you are very confused.

First of all, Zionism can be equated with Nazism. It's a hate movement. The Zionist movement began in the 1880's and promoted the superiority of Jews compared to other religions. The goal was to establish a homeland in the "promised land" and expell out all non-believers. That includes Christians and Muslims. So if your not anti-Zionist, then you must really be full of hate.

Second of all, Hezbollah is a terrorist group only according to the US and Israel. In many other parts of the world they are recognized as a legitimate freedom fighting group fighting to liberate Lebanese land occupied by Israel.

Before you go around calling Hezbollah terrorists, take a look at the IRA. A group that is supported by the US but are not any different from Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has never attacked Israeli territories. They have always remained within Lebanon. Since their formation in 1985, they have fought the Israeli occupation in the south and finally expelled them in May of 2000. There is a bit of land that Israel is still occupying due to its rich sources of minerals and water which Israel is excavating for itself. Twice or three times a week, Israeli military planes trespass into Lebanese airspace and break the sound barrier shattering windows. Hezbollah fire at them with their pissy poor anti-aircraft artillery but always miss.

And no, Lebanon is not controled by Syria anymore. Syria does have some influence, but Lebanon is an independant country with its own parliamentary democratic government where free elections are held. The prime minister and the president are the leaders.

You bring up the 1948 UN partition plan which cheated the Palestinians. It gave Israel 56% of historical Palestine and gave the Palestinians the rest which is the poorer less fertile land. Since the 1967 war waged by Israel, the Palestinians now only have 22% of historical Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) and that little bit of land is what the Palestinians are fighting to get now. Don't you think you'd be pissed if you were cheated?

I sure would...

jimyvr

I'm wondering what will US Government react if Canada tells US carriers where they should and should not fly.

BA

jiml1126,

They wouldn't do a thing. The US does whatever it wants and whenever it wants.

marbuck

Well the AC Flyertalk forum is probably not the best place to debate the Israel/Palestine matter, though of course the fact that a flight cancellation relevant here ties to the ongoing battle shows the pervasiveness of the issue.

I am not blindly pro-israel and certainly understand many'warts' within Zionism. But the 'other side' cannot claim to be angels. Equating Zionism to Nazism is an insult and hateful allegation; whether the Zionist movement is right or wrong, the fact is millions of displaced Jews who somehow were not among the 6 million murdered by the Nazis through 1945, had a 'right of return' to their homeland, as were the millions expelled as 'refugees' from Arab countries post 1948.
The UN recognized Israel's right to exist in 48. The Palestinians and Arabs did not, and started a war. Many Palestinians/Arabs still do not recognize the right of the Jewish state to exist (with that loaded 'right of return' supposition).
Does this mean Israel should occupy areas of the palestinian zone originally allocated by the UN to the Palestinian state? Presumably not, in accorandance with an honorable and true peace. And once peace has truly arrived, will a real 'right of return' emerge, as Palestinians travel freely as visitors, possibly marry Israeli (Arab) citizens, and intergrate into a healthy community?
But of course the Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists think it right to blow up buses with schoolchildren and civilian workers on board. Sorry, I don't buy this terrorist-loving ideology. And, accordingly, I can understand the national security reasons for stopping this direct flight.

BA

Equating Zionism to Nazism is an insult and hateful allegation

Go look at the defination of Zionism. It's all about superiority and establishing a homeland in the "promised land" and kicking out all non-believers. That's a hate movement.

the fact is millions of displaced Jews who somehow were not among the 6 million murdered by the Nazis through 1945

And how does that give them the right to steal another land?

had a 'right of return' to their homeland

Well it sure isn't Palestine. Since the beginning of time, Palestine has been under Arab rule from the times of the Canaanites, to the Philistines, then to the Ottoman Empire. Moses led the Jews out of Egypt to Palestine and they were WELCOMED by the Philistines. They built some fancy temples stayed for about 72 years and left. How does that make it there land?


as were the millions expelled as 'refugees' from Arab countries post 1948.

I'm glad you know this fact.

The UN recognized Israel's right to exist in 48. The Palestinians and Arabs did not, and started a war.

Would you recognize a nations right to exist that took advantage of you and got the benefit? The fact is the Palestinians were cheated, they weren't given a fair piece of the pie. They were the majority (much much larger majority) yet they got less land and the least valuable land.

Many Palestinians/Arabs still do not recognize the right of the Jewish state to exist (with that loaded 'right of return' supposition).

Of course, for the reasons I stated above.

But of course the Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists think it right to blow up buses with schoolchildren and civilian workers on board. Sorry, I don't buy this terrorist-loving ideology.

What about the Israeli F-16s that drop bombs ontop of Palestinian neighborhoods killing several innocent Palestinian women and children a day? Is that okay though?
You think Israel doesn't committing terrorism? You've been watching too much of the biased jewish lobby controled media.......

marbuck

Well, obviously BA and myself appear to be on the opposite side of this issue. As I mentioned, I have no grudges or hate, and certainly appreciate the historical and moral complexity underlying the Zionist movement. But nation-building is not a pure and simple thing, and no matter what the Palestinian movement claims, something very important happened in 1948. The UN voted to partition Palestine into two distinctive states, one Jewish and the other Arab.
The Jewish people accepted this decision -- the Arabs didn't, and started the first of several wars. Israel defended itself and continues to do so until this day.
For whatever reason, Israel has had to defend itself against terrorism from the beginning, and for some reason or another, terrorists like either using or blowing up airliners. You might recall that nasty incident recently in Kenya.
I am not a blind defender of rabble rousing extremists on the Israeli side who claim a holy right to the entire state of Palestine. But equally, I do not want flights full of Hamas/Hezbollah supporters landing in Montreal -- unless the RCMP has a strict security screening at the airport! These 'freedom fighters' see any Israeli Jewish civilian who thinks Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state as being a fair target for a suicide bomb attack.

Guava

I was hesitant to speak in this thread at first but I think it could be useful to offer another point of view.

Frankly, I am not surprised by this last-minute decision to cancel this route. From a Canadian perspective, the existence of this only direct airlink between Lebanon (Arab Middle-East) and North America is unique. Even though Lebanese people, like many other Arab nations are mostly peace-loving people and do not share the extremist views of trouble-making terrorists, the Middle East is still the place in the world where you will likely find most of the underground terrorist organizations capable and interested in creating events like 9-11. That's just the reality. Although this is mostly true, it remains a generalization. As you know these days, terrorist groups are no longer restrained by geographical boundaries. However, the case here with Lebanon is more than just a general supposition. Hezbollah, a group of people dedicated to drive out Israelis and Jews from Southern Lebanon are regarded as patriots and national heroes in the eyes of Muslim Lebanese. It's important to point out the Christian Lebanese generally don't share this view however. And unlike in Canada where religion really is not an issue, it matters a lot in Lebanon and even Beirut. For example, there are certain sections in the city where Muslims won�t go and vice-versa. The complexity of this issue is beyond the scope of discussion here but suffice to say, Hezbollah is not an underground organization like Al-Qaida but generally welcome and supported within Lebanon. There are even Lebanese politicians directly affiliated with Hezbollah almost like a political party but not exactly. Now, the problem is Hezbollah is listed as an Int�l terrorist organization by the Canadian Government recently. This caused a bit of problem between Canada and Lebanon but the decision stands. So one hand, Hezbollah can roam freely within its borders and pretty much do whatever it wants � politicking, recruiting members and participate in all �projects� it feels like including skirmishing with Israel along their borders but on the other, in Canada, this group is outlawed. If you identify yourself as a member of Hezbollah when you get into YUL, chances are you will have problems. I guess I have made this simple enough for everyone to understand this very complicated problem which is another reason why don�t expect much explanations from Ottawa on this. Now this view is purely Canadian from a perspective with only the Maple Leaf interests in mind. And no, I am not a lefty nor a right hawk, I call myself �Extreme Center�.

Now to expand this issue a little bit more, I think this decision in some way also matters from a North American perspective. I know some of you believed this decision has much of what the U.S. tells Canada what to do as though Canada has to follow the U.S. without a choice. Well, I think it�s safe to assume the U.S. has an interest on this issue no doubt � after all, we shared the continent with them. But to suggest Canada and most Canadians would just follow the U.S. blindly, I think this kind of idea is seriously outdated. If anything, I haven�t seen a time of our history where Canadian and American policies have been so divergent [put it directly: at odds against each other] in the modern era. While the right wing hawks in Canada are more than eager to please the Americans like puppies, the left wings fear the Americans like they are human-eaters. The majority of Canadians, reflected by the current political context, believes in cooperating with Americans as equal, fair and respectful partners where everything is open for discussions. Everything is talkable and not driven by fears or ignorance over our national sovereignty nor a blind support due to an unequal or quasi-fear type of respect like the way Australia bowed to the U.S. pressure in participating in the war in Iraq. If Canada is truly just a follower of the U.S., we would have joined the U.S. in the recent war where I am sure, Bush would much preferred an open political support from Canada. So think about it � the war in Iraq was much more important than this issue of Air Canada operating a direct link between North America and Arab Worlds, yet if Canada can defy the U.S. on a major issue, do you think it would be afraid to defy the issue where the U.S. didn�t even publicly voice any opposition? Does that make sense? And you know what, the Bush Administration is really an amazing paradox which never ceases to amaze me. On one hand, it really doesn�t care about what other countries [including Canada] think but on the other, it really enjoys telling others how to run their countries. Take the decriminalization of pot for example, the U.S. have been extremely vocal about it. Yet, there are 12 States in the U.S., which have similar laws as what Canada plans to do. Why don�t Bush build somekind of border controls around these States and make sure pot don�t flow freely to States where pots are still crimes? The point is, the Bush Administration will not be shy to voice any disagreements vocally and publicly and Canada has not been timid in telling Bush to mind his own business either, although politely.

So what would be the North-American perspective on this issue? Now setting aside the nationalistic feelings of both nations for a moment, North America really doesn�t feel like 2 nations. Canadians don�t need passports or visas to enter the U.S. and for instance, the newly introduced photos and fingerprinting of all foreign visitors with visa starting in late 2003 will not apply to Canadians because we don�t need visas whatsoever. The States and Provinces share a great deal of resources together by-passing even their respective national governments. It is actually quite common that States and Provinces within a certain region to have regular/annual minister level conferences dealing with a wide variety of regional issues where the national governments� involvements were declined. Culturally speaking, despite significant differences on a national level, regions tend to very much alike. For instance the New Englanders feel strong ties towards Eastern Canada and Atlantic regions [the latter used/is considered an extension of New England by many]. Asking anyone from Vermont who hasn�t been to Montreal or who doesn�t have someone who is from Canada in their family is rare. The local PBS station is responsible for cultural events in Burlington, Plattsburgh and Montreal. When a TV station goes across the national identity border and incorporates local flavors as one, it says a lot about the degree of integration that already exists but mostly sub-consciously. When a Quebec man recently crossed the border by-passing the immigration control to buy gas and was arrested, the people most outraged by this incident is actually Americans living on the border where the incident took place. In their mind, it was outrageous and downright stupid that such law exists. It�s like a neighbour of theirs was arrested for crossing the street to do groceries in another supermarket. Having to go to great length to state the obvious which I am sure most of you is fully aware is simply to remind that despite all the differences we have with Americans, especially recently, there is nobody else in the world we are closer to, not even the British or the Australians. Now this point is clear � if there is a good possibility that some terrorists in the Middle East who have all the intentions in the world to harm the U.S. in ways beyond our imagination, I think as Canadians, we not only have the moral duties of minimizing such possibility as fellow North Americans but we must also fulfill our obligations as world citizens to combat these threats regardless who is being targeted. It doesn�t matter if Canada was not being targeted, as long as somebody is the goal of such irrational extremist groups, we sure will not be part of facilitating their plans. Especially considering the target we know is our neighbours, despite all the differences and disagreements and even frustrations, are people whom we truly care about.

Now getting back to the direct airlink between North America and the Arab Worlds. Because Hezbollah has virtual free reign within Lebanon and it is no secret that an organization like this has ties to many other organizations 100 or 1000 times more vicious than Hezbollah, it is logical to conceive that certain terrorists from other organizations can easily use the extremists within Hezbollah who exist not only to drive away the Jews but with a destructive sense of vengeance to reach North America with a rather secured channel. Hezbollah will be an excellent cover given its legal and respected status in Lebanon. Although outlawed in North America, at least the terrorists don�t have to worry much about Lebanese authorities who are afraid, unwilling or powerless to do anything significant about it. The arriving port, Montreal, has the largest Arab community in Canada and one of the largest in the continent, which means once they enter Montreal, they have a high chance of being �received� by sympathizers with the cause of Al-Qaida and etc. Not to suggest these residents are terrorists, most of them probably wouldn�t even know much about it or very little, they simply sympathize with the cause but disapproves the actions. And because the traditional close ties within Arab communities, an extremely collectivist society, these arriving people who have vicious intentions but only themselves and very few others know, will easily mixed into the local population which is 99.9% perfectly innocent and honest residents. Once settled, they will adapt to the environment first as sleeping cells then seek opportunities to move to other places when they will become active. As a reminder, it only took 11 people to bring down the WTCs. The real victims are really the Arab communities here. For example, a newly arrived Lebanese as a student will be welcome and integrated easily. It wouldn�t take long before a lot of people recognize this newcomer�s face. But perhaps none of them know that this particular person has something else in mind � for all they know, this is just a new comer. With only one real security check which is the arrival at YUL, this is such an unusual and unique opportunity for terrorists who can only dream of a direct channel between their heartlands and North America. And let�s face it, I live in Montreal and I know YUL doesn�t have the latest security technologies in place to deal with these people skilled in deception. YUL doesn�t even have dogs on patrol! And Arabs are so common in YUL that immigration officers mostly just get used to it and then it becomes very hard to differentiate terrorists from commoners. It�s like when you smell something odd, you realize it for the first 15-30 minutes but after you get used to it, you don�t even realize it anymore. To add insults to injuries, Lebanon used to be French colony and a significant number of Lebanese speak French, which is another coincidental difficulty of making the Immigration officers� job tougher. I can think of many other reasons why this would be perceived as a very relevant potential security breach if this direct flight were allowed. But suffice to say, this issue is a concern for Canadians and North Americans.

P.S. I am neither Jew/Israeli or Arab or Muslim


[This message has been edited by Guava (edited 06-04-2003).]

cure

Clearly an attempt to keep a devastated country devastated. The Canadian government has the backbone of a jellyfish.

cure

"everyone in for some serious questioning, and clear only those with nothing to do with hamas, hezbollah, and any other so-called 'anti-zionist' organization"

I don't recall any of these organisations attacking Canada. Are we going to also seriously question Israelis in the search for anyone who has anything to do with war crimes to say nothing of settlements? Do we start with Sharon?

YOWkid

I wasn't going to make any comments, but I think I will add something interesting that I was once told... (If I'm wrong, then please tell me.)

With respect to zionism and the state of Isreal, it is interesting to note that even amongst themselves, they have their own "class structure". Apparently, if you're a Jew who went through Nazi camps or what have you, you're classified as a "first class Jew" and are treated well and have 'superiority'. If you didn't go through any of that, then you're not necessarily classified as 'first class'. You may be 'second class' depending on blood lines. But, if you're 'third class', ie. non-Jewish, then you're treated like dirt and you're viewed as nothing but a slave by the Government and by society (a little harsh, but I think you get the idea).

Can you not relate this type of situation to something else that we've seen?

The Arabs were screwed by the British back during the end of WWII. The Arabs were first promised to have a "land of their own" by the Brits. The Brits, through the other side of their mouth made the same promise to the Jews. As you know, they honoured the promise made to the Jews and screwed the Arabs. The rest is history...

marbuck

I knew I was wading into sensitive territory here -- but this morning's Globe and Mail indeed suggests in its lead story the concern on the Beiruit route relates to the dangers of airline terrorist routing/activities.
For those not familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian issues, the topic is full of loaded 'code words' and extreme emotions, underlying very complex historical and current events. This stuff became directly relevant to the U.S. (and Canada/the world) on September 11, 2001. Palestinians cheered for joy when the planes slammed into the buildings in New York and Washington. Many Palestinians regard Osama Bin Laden (and Sadaam Hussein) as their heros. The U.S. government (and population) naturally now has a very different opinion. Unfortunately for Air Canada and its legitimate business interests -- and the many honest Lebanese and Canadians who would welcome a non-stop air route between Montreal and Beruit -- terrorism, mideast issues, and airliners are all linked in a very volatile mess.
Israelis do not attack civilian jets with missles. They do not hijack passenger jets and aim them into skyscrapers. Hezbollah supporters, based in Lebanon, might not either, but they certainly have 'friends' who do!

parnel

http://makeashorterlink.com/?B61C32DC4

This article might help the discussion.Airport security in Beirut seems to be the subject at hand here along with Canada branding Hezbollah a terrorist group.

B767

Well said Guava! A logical view of an emotional issue.

FlyerAl

I was surprised they were going to initiate service to Beirut in the first place! There must be "safer" new routes to launch.