AC Comments on Proposed Transportation Modernization Act (Passenger Bill of Rights)
#211
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYC
Programs: Air Canada SE100K, Westjet Platinum, Marriott Platinum Elite, NEXUS
Posts: 144
I don't buy half of what you are saying, but you know what, it doesn't matter. If no new competitors enter the Canadian aviation market, IDGAF. If the cost of airfares goes up, IDGAF. If AC finally does better than 30% OTP, that IGAF about. If they weren't such a bunch of slimy d-bags that sell one thing and provide another, I might be infinitesimally sympathetic to their position. They are, and I'm not.
This isn’t a difficult concept. Take your money elsewhere. Why you would continue to spend money on AC if you think they are “d-bags” is beyond me.
#212
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,402
Further... what makes you think the competition is any better? They are equally regulated/un-regulated. Your whole free market purist stance is literally unsupportable and silly in the context of airlines; but hey just let Boeing build planes that fall out of the sky... if people don't like it they can fly Airbus right? Or heck, somebody else will come along with $100 billion to start a new airline manufacturer and do it perfectly the first time with no experience! No worries, just scrap the regulation. It is just too big a barrier to free competition.
Maybe this conversation would be less "beyond you" if you were capable of bringing a little bit of nuance to the conversation instead of positioning everything as a binary choice? Just a thought...
#213
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYC
Programs: Air Canada SE100K, Westjet Platinum, Marriott Platinum Elite, NEXUS
Posts: 144
You clearly know nothing about my flying and don't understand what trade-offs I may or may not be willing to make in my travel. Your response is both simplistic and unrealistic for me, and many many other frequent flyers.
Further... what makes you think the competition is any better? They are equally regulated/un-regulated. Your whole free market purist stance is literally unsupportable and silly in the context of airlines; but hey just let Boeing build planes that fall out of the sky... if people don't like it they can fly Airbus right? Or heck, somebody else will come along with $100 billion to start a new airline manufacturer and do it perfectly the first time with no experience! No worries, just scrap the regulation. It is just too big a barrier to free competition.
Maybe this conversation would be less "beyond you" if you were capable of bringing a little bit of nuance to the conversation instead of positioning everything as a binary choice? Just a thought...
Further... what makes you think the competition is any better? They are equally regulated/un-regulated. Your whole free market purist stance is literally unsupportable and silly in the context of airlines; but hey just let Boeing build planes that fall out of the sky... if people don't like it they can fly Airbus right? Or heck, somebody else will come along with $100 billion to start a new airline manufacturer and do it perfectly the first time with no experience! No worries, just scrap the regulation. It is just too big a barrier to free competition.
Maybe this conversation would be less "beyond you" if you were capable of bringing a little bit of nuance to the conversation instead of positioning everything as a binary choice? Just a thought...
I’m not sure why you are getting so emotional about this? I have been clear that I am in support of most of the legislation. I don’t agree with the amounts of the compensation. It’s excessive and will force ticket prices even higher than they are now.
#214
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,804
Thinking about this, and about all that "competition" and "market" BS/widhful thinking. I guess the point is, it's nothing like a market. There is some sort of elasticity curve on the demand side, and airlines SET prices with some/a good knowledge of that curve, to maximize whatever they want to maximize, cash flow or profit or whatever. Which has nothing to do with the classical free market pricing mechanism, and is largely unaffected by this kind of regulations, so that any extra cost ends up effectively having to be swallowed by the airlines. So obviously they are unhappy, possibly very unhappy. (Not that I care either way.)
#215
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,920
This isn't about a free market or additional regulations for the sake of regulations. I emphasize that we are at this point because of the airlines themselves. All that the legislation does is attach a cost to a small number of abusive practices common in Canada. It is quite simple now: The airlines can avoid these costs if they change their business model that allows for passengers to be trapped for 5 hours on a tarmac with no access to potable water, or that denies boarding to vulnerable passengers. If the costs are large enough, perhaps it will encourage the airlines to tighten their management processes and to have effective contingency plans in place, like other airlines. Keep in mind that Canada's airlines intentionally mistreated passengers. They chose not to invest in contingency plans. It was the airlines choice. Passengers had little if any recourse. Now the airlines are being told to deliver what has been purchased.
The penalties are noticeable to encourage compliance and to avoid the airlines carrying on with the current intentional abusive practices.
#216
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: YAM, CIU, CGN
Programs: AC FOTSG, DL WM
Posts: 190
- $400 for 3 hours
- $700 for 6 hours
- $1000 for 9 hours or more.
The larger compensation amounts only come into play for people who are IDBed. Those are $900, $1800, and $2400, for a delay of <6, 6-9, or >9 hours, respectively.
Here's the regulation itself: Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 153, Number 11: Air Passenger Protection Regulations
#217
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
It won't, unless I'm misunderstanding something. The max compensation amount for a delay -- within the carrier's control, and not safety-related -- whether on the tarmac or not, is
The larger compensation amounts only come into play for people who are IDBed. Those are $900, $1800, and $2400, for a delay of <6, 6-9, or >9 hours, respectively.
Here's the regulation itself: Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 153, Number 11: Air Passenger Protection Regulations
- $400 for 3 hours
- $700 for 6 hours
- $1000 for 9 hours or more.
The larger compensation amounts only come into play for people who are IDBed. Those are $900, $1800, and $2400, for a delay of <6, 6-9, or >9 hours, respectively.
Here's the regulation itself: Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 153, Number 11: Air Passenger Protection Regulations
#218
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Body in Downtown YYZ, heart and mind elsewhere
Programs: UA 50K, refugee from AC E50K, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 5,132
Here's an article from the Globe & Mail (July 6, Report on Business, page B3). Apparently Canadian airlines - including AC - have gone to the Federal Court of Appeal in an attempt to quash the Canadian pax bill of rights. Per the article, "Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with 17 other applicants that include the International Air Transport Association (IATA) – which has some 290 member airlines – state in a court filing that required payments under the country’s new air-passenger bill of rights violates international standards and should be rendered invalid."
There are a couple of quotes attributed to John McKenna who I presume is the head of an airline lobbying group. One quote says that Mr. McKenna "called the compensation grid “very high” and the new rules “outrageous”."
There are a couple of quotes attributed to John McKenna who I presume is the head of an airline lobbying group. One quote says that Mr. McKenna "called the compensation grid “very high” and the new rules “outrageous”."
#219
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,997
Imagine an airline like Flair or AirTransat where long delays are not uncommon. This is going to be very expensive for them. What it is going to do is bring the bottom of the market up. AC is not going to look that much more expensive. This is good for AC, but for the bottom feeders airlines.
#220
Join Date: May 2003
Programs: UA Silver
Posts: 1,931
Here's an article from the Globe & Mail (July 6, Report on Business, page B3). Apparently Canadian airlines - including AC - have gone to the Federal Court of Appeal in an attempt to quash the Canadian pax bill of rights. Per the article, "Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with 17 other applicants that include the International Air Transport Association (IATA) – which has some 290 member airlines – state in a court filing that required payments under the country’s new air-passenger bill of rights violates international standards and should be rendered invalid."
There are a couple of quotes attributed to John McKenna who I presume is the head of an airline lobbying group. One quote says that Mr. McKenna "called the compensation grid “very high” and the new rules “outrageous”."
There are a couple of quotes attributed to John McKenna who I presume is the head of an airline lobbying group. One quote says that Mr. McKenna "called the compensation grid “very high” and the new rules “outrageous”."
#221
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,920
I read the quote you posted and had a bit of a chuckle when I noted that his education includes a Master's degrees in Soviet and East European Economic Studies from Carleton University. Perhaps he longs for the good old days of the Soviet Union when passengers did as they were told?
#222
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
The plane that operates Vancouver to Edmonton begins its day in Toronto and visits Winnipeg, Calgary before making its way to Vancouver. It left Toronto a few hours late and did not manage to make up time. Getting into Vancouver an hour or two late. They have some paper work problem, then after a bit more of delay, some passangers decide to get off the flight, so another delay as there luggage is pulled offer. We end up 4-5 late into Edmonton. My first and last experience with them.
Air Canada has problems, but nothing like these guys. Anything that forces them to become closer to AC is good for the travelling public and reputable airlines like AC in that makes its cheaper competition less cheap.
#224
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Body in Downtown YYZ, heart and mind elsewhere
Programs: UA 50K, refugee from AC E50K, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 5,132
Today CBC reports that the Attorney General of Canada is calling the court challenge to Canada's new Pax Bill of Rights ""ill-founded" and should be dismissed".
CBC goes on to report that "In a pair of court filings, lawyers for the federal government and the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) say the government will fight air carriers' attempt to overturn rules that beef up compensation for travellers subjected to delayed flights and damaged luggage."
CBC goes on to report that "In a pair of court filings, lawyers for the federal government and the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) say the government will fight air carriers' attempt to overturn rules that beef up compensation for travellers subjected to delayed flights and damaged luggage."
#225
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, AC MM E75, Marriott LT Ti, IHG Dia Amb, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 15,521
AC1942 YUL-LIM Aug 17
My niece was scheduled to fly on AC1942 yesterday. Flight was cancelled due to "crew constraints". AC offered her a hotel room and a $500 voucher. Is she entitled to more? (She is traveling alone with a 2 yr old baby, so this is a bit of a nightmare for her.)
As far as I can tell, the flight hasn't taken off yet. I think it's been renamed AC1992. The latest status update says departure of 14:19 today, but it's still showing as delayed.
As far as I can tell, the flight hasn't taken off yet. I think it's been renamed AC1992. The latest status update says departure of 14:19 today, but it's still showing as delayed.