AC Comments on Proposed Transportation Modernization Act (Passenger Bill of Rights)
#181
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: YYZ
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Posts: 3,099
I am not sure by how much the price will increase, if at all, but I am sure AC will first try to cut costs first before increasing price. I expect seeing more rouge on domestic flights, and downgrades on international flights. This is pretty much what happened in Europe after EC261.
At the end of the day only market force matters. As long as the majority of the passengers only want cheaper fares or don’t care enough to look for other options, and airlines don’t need to worry about foreign competitions, then the landscape won’t change much.
At the end of the day only market force matters. As long as the majority of the passengers only want cheaper fares or don’t care enough to look for other options, and airlines don’t need to worry about foreign competitions, then the landscape won’t change much.
#182
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYC
Programs: Air Canada SE100K, Westjet Platinum, Marriott Platinum Elite, NEXUS
Posts: 144
Just like anything else, when increased costs are levied against businesses through regulation, the costs are always passed down to the consumer. Always. Look at the carbon tax, and how it has caused prices of everyday goods to rise. The increased cost of transporting those goods due to the carbon tax is not absorbed by any businesses in the supply chain. They are passed all the way down to the consumer.
That is the problem when people actually believe that increased regulations and taxes will “punish” companies, whether it be in the name of the environment, safety, etc. In the end, the consumer always pays the price.
Air Canada and Westjet are not going to cut costs specifically because of this legislation. As it will have an effect on all airlines in Canada relatively equally, the costs will simply be passed down to passengers through increased ticket prices and fees.
I wonder if these payouts will be applicable to Via Rail passengers when a train doesn’t move for hours and hours...
That is the problem when people actually believe that increased regulations and taxes will “punish” companies, whether it be in the name of the environment, safety, etc. In the end, the consumer always pays the price.
Air Canada and Westjet are not going to cut costs specifically because of this legislation. As it will have an effect on all airlines in Canada relatively equally, the costs will simply be passed down to passengers through increased ticket prices and fees.
I wonder if these payouts will be applicable to Via Rail passengers when a train doesn’t move for hours and hours...
#183
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 669
I am not sure by how much the price will increase, if at all, but I am sure AC will first try to cut costs first before increasing price. I expect seeing more rouge on domestic flights, and downgrades on international flights. This is pretty much what happened in Europe after EC261.
At the end of the day only market force matters. As long as the majority of the passengers only want cheaper fares or don’t care enough to look for other options, and airlines don’t need to worry about foreign competitions, then the landscape won’t change much.
At the end of the day only market force matters. As long as the majority of the passengers only want cheaper fares or don’t care enough to look for other options, and airlines don’t need to worry about foreign competitions, then the landscape won’t change much.
#184
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC SE (*A Gold), Bonvoy Platinum Elite, Hilton Gold, Amex Platinum / AP Reserve, NEXUS, Global Entry
Posts: 5,691
If this is the case, should AC be cancelling future Max deliveries and buying more used A318/20/21’s? These Max’s are very expensive paper weights for AC if they plane to Rouge more Dom routes. I really done understand were people are coming from thinking AC wants to Rouge the Dom mkt.
I don’t think anyone can argue that AC wants to “rouge” as many markets as possible.
#185
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,124
This seems to be a lot of noise about very little. The airlines don't have to provide any compensation when delays are caused by safety reasons. How many delays are there that are not caused by safety reasons? It should cover weather and mechanical issues. Unreasonably short scheduled turns are delayed because the pilots haven't finished their checklists -- safety. Planes can't push back while passengers are still storing all their carry-on bags -- safety. No gates are available on arrival but AC can't just deposit the passengers on the tarmac -- safety. Or am I missing something?
This will fix the problem of overbooking passengers and not offering people enough compensation to give up their seats, which should have been addressed a long time ago (although we rarely encounter it as frequent fliers).
This shouldn't cost the airlines much money. The execs at AC don't need to worry about their bonuses.
This will fix the problem of overbooking passengers and not offering people enough compensation to give up their seats, which should have been addressed a long time ago (although we rarely encounter it as frequent fliers).
This shouldn't cost the airlines much money. The execs at AC don't need to worry about their bonuses.
#186
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,915
It is highly unlikely that the regulations will cause an increase in operating costs over and above those now incurred from the airline industry's practices, particularly the more egregious methods of Air Canada. As has been pointed out in other posts, the regulations offer a significant amount of leeway to avoid payment of the specified indemnifications and penalties.
More importantly, there would need to be an enforcement provision, and the new regulations do not improve oversight nor compliance enforcement. Much will rest on injured passengers bringing the complaint and navigating the onerous filing requirements. Again, as has been pointed out in this forum multiple times, the delays and paperwork needed to collect even the most basic of compensation is difficult and often costs more in time lost than is worth the compensation offered. Many of the less capable passengers will turn to folks like Dr. Lukacs and ask for his assistance and support to navigate the bureaucratic obstacles.
In plain language, there is no point in having the regulations if the systemic obstacles to claiming are not reduced. Nor will it encourage compliance if there are no independent audits and review, as is done in the USA and EU. When the airlines misbehave in other jurisdictions, there are sanctions imposed. Please tell me where the oversight provisions are in the new legislation and how systemic willful noncompliance will be addressed. The new regulations are sll smoke and mirrors, much like other recent government legislation. I am disappointed in Minister Garneau, especially since I once held him in very high regard. How a man of such intelligence, and personal integrity bungled something as simple and straightforward as this, will taint his legacy of public service.
More importantly, there would need to be an enforcement provision, and the new regulations do not improve oversight nor compliance enforcement. Much will rest on injured passengers bringing the complaint and navigating the onerous filing requirements. Again, as has been pointed out in this forum multiple times, the delays and paperwork needed to collect even the most basic of compensation is difficult and often costs more in time lost than is worth the compensation offered. Many of the less capable passengers will turn to folks like Dr. Lukacs and ask for his assistance and support to navigate the bureaucratic obstacles.
In plain language, there is no point in having the regulations if the systemic obstacles to claiming are not reduced. Nor will it encourage compliance if there are no independent audits and review, as is done in the USA and EU. When the airlines misbehave in other jurisdictions, there are sanctions imposed. Please tell me where the oversight provisions are in the new legislation and how systemic willful noncompliance will be addressed. The new regulations are sll smoke and mirrors, much like other recent government legislation. I am disappointed in Minister Garneau, especially since I once held him in very high regard. How a man of such intelligence, and personal integrity bungled something as simple and straightforward as this, will taint his legacy of public service.
Last edited by Transpacificflyer; May 26, 2019 at 1:00 pm
#187
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
Just like anything else, when increased costs are levied against businesses through regulation, the costs are always passed down to the consumer. Always. Look at the carbon tax, and how it has caused prices of everyday goods to rise. The increased cost of transporting those goods due to the carbon tax is not absorbed by any businesses in the supply chain. They are passed all the way down to the consumer.
That is the problem when people actually believe that increased regulations and taxes will “punish” companies, whether it be in the name of the environment, safety, etc. In the end, the consumer always pays the price.
Air Canada and Westjet are not going to cut costs specifically because of this legislation. As it will have an effect on all airlines in Canada relatively equally, the costs will simply be passed down to passengers through increased ticket prices and fees.
I wonder if these payouts will be applicable to Via Rail passengers when a train doesn’t move for hours and hours...
That is the problem when people actually believe that increased regulations and taxes will “punish” companies, whether it be in the name of the environment, safety, etc. In the end, the consumer always pays the price.
Air Canada and Westjet are not going to cut costs specifically because of this legislation. As it will have an effect on all airlines in Canada relatively equally, the costs will simply be passed down to passengers through increased ticket prices and fees.
I wonder if these payouts will be applicable to Via Rail passengers when a train doesn’t move for hours and hours...
They won't. We'll just see some WS-type honesty wherein everything will either be safety-related or outside the airlines' control. We're dealing with entities that have a history of using dishonest tactics or plain outright lying when it suits them. And it'll almost always go unpunished. These situations require transparency and honesty on the part of the airline for compensation to be paid out; both are in short supply in AC, WS and other airlines, however ethical or morally upstanding their employees are in their private lives.
And then there's the regulators. It took CTA two years - yep, two years - to conclude that WS lied about airports being closed. Does it really take that long to call another nations' aviation authorities to check when an airport was closed? I somehow doubt it. They hoped the problem would go away in time. Then issued a mild warning with no penalty. Or compensation for those affected. Such is the nature of regulatory capture in Canada. Good luck disproving an airline's claim that the next delay isn't safety related. CTA or TC or whoever will likely try to wait you out instead of doing what it should be doing.
As an aside, Via rail gives a 50% credit or voucher or something for each leg that is delayed over 1 hour and 100% for delays over four hours on the Quebec Windsor corridor.
https://m.viarail.ca/en/resources/condition-travel-credit
Admittedly shouldn't expect airline employees to know that.
Last edited by yulred; May 26, 2019 at 1:17 pm
#188
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https://globalnews.ca/news/5464210/c...senger-rights/
OTTAWA — Canadian airlines are among the hundreds of carriers asking the Federal Court of Appeal to quash new rules around passenger rights.
Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with some 290 member airlines of the International Air Transport Association, say in a court filing that required compensation for passengers dealing with delayed flights and damaged luggage violates international standards and should be rendered invalid.
OTTAWA — Canadian airlines are among the hundreds of carriers asking the Federal Court of Appeal to quash new rules around passenger rights.
Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with some 290 member airlines of the International Air Transport Association, say in a court filing that required compensation for passengers dealing with delayed flights and damaged luggage violates international standards and should be rendered invalid.
#189
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,788
https://globalnews.ca/news/5464210/c...senger-rights/
OTTAWA — Canadian airlines are among the hundreds of carriers asking the Federal Court of Appeal to quash new rules around passenger rights.
Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with some 290 member airlines of the International Air Transport Association, say in a court filing that required compensation for passengers dealing with delayed flights and damaged luggage violates international standards and should be rendered invalid.
OTTAWA — Canadian airlines are among the hundreds of carriers asking the Federal Court of Appeal to quash new rules around passenger rights.
Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with some 290 member airlines of the International Air Transport Association, say in a court filing that required compensation for passengers dealing with delayed flights and damaged luggage violates international standards and should be rendered invalid.
Good luck...
#191
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: YAM, CIU, CGN
Programs: AC FOTSG, DL WM
Posts: 190
Air Canada and Porter Airlines Inc., along with some 290 member airlines of the International Air Transport Association, say in a court filing that required compensation for passengers dealing with delayed flights and damaged luggage violates international standards and should be rendered invalid.
#192
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)
Programs: AC*SE100K, wood level status in various other programs
Posts: 6,211
W.T.F. ????
They lobby for (and get) a watered down Act and then have the gall to go to court over the scraps that are left?
Anything further I can say would be ungentlemanly and get me banned from FT, so I will just say that's not very nice of them.
They lobby for (and get) a watered down Act and then have the gall to go to court over the scraps that are left?
Anything further I can say would be ungentlemanly and get me banned from FT, so I will just say that's not very nice of them.
#193
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYC
Programs: Air Canada SE100K, Westjet Platinum, Marriott Platinum Elite, NEXUS
Posts: 144
#194
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE 1MM, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 3,395
Its not really a compelling argument.
And there are ways in which it might push airlines to have, for example, better OTP, which AC could arguably achieve without any impact on ticket prices at all.
#195
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delta, BC
Posts: 1,646
Regardless, the argument on the validity of the Act vs the Montreal Convention from the article has some laughably contrived statements that would last about a 1/2 second under examination in court. There MAY be some clauses subject to challenge but the whole Act is unlikely to get tossed.