C inventory "logic"
Sep 1, 2002, 11:18 pm
#16
Join Date: Apr 2002
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AC already has their 'C-management' under control....
I'm looking at flights in May 2003 from YYC-LHR...
T seatmaps show the planes completely empty. Getting all 9's in all the classes on ITN.
Some flights have C9 [few], some have C3 [one] and some have C0... Especially the LHR-YYZ routes.
How this helps them make money is beyond my limited yield-management theory [aka none]
YYCOllie
I'm looking at flights in May 2003 from YYC-LHR...
T seatmaps show the planes completely empty. Getting all 9's in all the classes on ITN.
Some flights have C9 [few], some have C3 [one] and some have C0... Especially the LHR-YYZ routes.
How this helps them make money is beyond my limited yield-management theory [aka none]
YYCOllie
Sep 2, 2002, 1:33 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 99
...here's another example of C-zero (as it affects my itinerary):
Sept 21
YYC-FRA
AC 852 @ 20:10
Biz: 4 seats sold / C0.
Oct 7
FRA-YYC
AC 844 @ 14:00
Biz: 4 seats sold / C0.
Round trip J fare = $6400 (approx.)
That's a lot of expensive seats left unfilled in the pointy end.
Front-line SE agents are unable to offer any assistance, as AC management evidently has given no relevant information that would allow an informed response. However, they all recommend filing a written comment or complaint with Customer Solutions.
A concierge had earlier advised that my inquiries about AC practices could be emailed to [email protected]. Evidently she is a YYC based administrator for Customer Solutions.
Sept 21
YYC-FRA
AC 852 @ 20:10
Biz: 4 seats sold / C0.
Oct 7
FRA-YYC
AC 844 @ 14:00
Biz: 4 seats sold / C0.
Round trip J fare = $6400 (approx.)
That's a lot of expensive seats left unfilled in the pointy end.
Front-line SE agents are unable to offer any assistance, as AC management evidently has given no relevant information that would allow an informed response. However, they all recommend filing a written comment or complaint with Customer Solutions.
A concierge had earlier advised that my inquiries about AC practices could be emailed to [email protected]. Evidently she is a YYC based administrator for Customer Solutions.
Sep 2, 2002, 6:08 am
#18
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Canada
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but that route does sell out--at least in the back, and sometimes they need the front for the overflow.
I still don't know why we expect upgrades are a right and not a perq (even though I get them 100% of the time). I am always thrilled to get them and I work the system as much as it works me to ensure I fly up front. I certainly don't think upgrades are a right, they are a privilege conferred by the amount of flying I do.
Of course, if AC doesn't offer them or doesn't provide them at reasonable value, I'll look for an airline that does . . .
I still don't know why we expect upgrades are a right and not a perq (even though I get them 100% of the time). I am always thrilled to get them and I work the system as much as it works me to ensure I fly up front. I certainly don't think upgrades are a right, they are a privilege conferred by the amount of flying I do.
Of course, if AC doesn't offer them or doesn't provide them at reasonable value, I'll look for an airline that does . . .
Sep 2, 2002, 7:43 am
#19
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I believe the YYC-FRA is a codeshare service at least with LH, which would explain the lower C allocation at this early date. But again, J generally sells within a week of travel, not months in advance. There may also be an advance purchase C inventory. [From what inventory does AC take J consolidator tickets?] The bottom line is as BB has noted. There is no right to an confirmed upgrade in advance of the flight, but as has been shown with both Ferrari and Empress, if seats are available within a day or two, they will be released.
If you want to ensure upgrading, then find flights midweek that are least likely to sell out, based on the general traffic patterns of any given route. I know this is not practidcal, but when one travels on a Sunday afternoon or Monday morning, or most of Friday, you are least likely to get an upgrade confirmed in advance, if at the airport.
Your chances of upgrading on AC are generally better than on US carriers. The up side, there are less elites competing for upgrades since fewer people have likely paid the higher fares AC demands. And US carriers permit upgrades using points/miles, adding to the number demanding these limited number of seats. The down side, if you don't get an upgrade, it is likely AC has actually sold their J seat, something US carriers are less likely to have done on domestic flights, except for a couple of major transcon routes, and with passengers connecting to intercontinental routes.
If you want to ensure upgrading, then find flights midweek that are least likely to sell out, based on the general traffic patterns of any given route. I know this is not practidcal, but when one travels on a Sunday afternoon or Monday morning, or most of Friday, you are least likely to get an upgrade confirmed in advance, if at the airport.
Your chances of upgrading on AC are generally better than on US carriers. The up side, there are less elites competing for upgrades since fewer people have likely paid the higher fares AC demands. And US carriers permit upgrades using points/miles, adding to the number demanding these limited number of seats. The down side, if you don't get an upgrade, it is likely AC has actually sold their J seat, something US carriers are less likely to have done on domestic flights, except for a couple of major transcon routes, and with passengers connecting to intercontinental routes.
Sep 2, 2002, 12:50 pm
#20
Company Representative - Air Canada
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 24,215
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BlondeBomber:
I certainly don't think upgrades are a right, they are a privilege conferred by the amount of flying I do.</font>
I certainly don't think upgrades are a right, they are a privilege conferred by the amount of flying I do.</font>
Flight is wide open, it's a week or so before departure, do they really expect to sell all of them?
One of the problem with C class is that it represents upgrades, discounted J... having a seperate upgrade inventory would resolve this problem IMO. After all, there are only a couple of SE/Es on each flight that are eligible for upgrade (especially international).
It's stupid that they close out C right at 7 days mark (i've seen it happen a lot so don't say it doesn't happen) and sometimes never open it up. Then when you get on, you see the J cabin 80% empty.
Sep 2, 2002, 3:36 pm
#22
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I certainly don't think upgrades are a right, they are a privilege conferred by the amount of flying I do.</font>
Sep 2, 2002, 3:40 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">but that route does sell out--at least in the back, and sometimes they need the front for the overflow.</font>
Oh wait... now I get it. I said the "L" word.
Nevermind.
Sep 2, 2002, 3:57 pm
#24
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: YYZ
Programs: Presto
Posts: 638
Ken (et al),
In support of your earlier comments you might find Malcolm Gladwell's recent NewYorker article ( http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020722fa_fact ) interesting. Titled the "Talent Myth" he has some interesting insights into our current coporate 'culture'.
Cheers.
[This message has been edited by NoahVail (edited 09-02-2002).]
In support of your earlier comments you might find Malcolm Gladwell's recent NewYorker article ( http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020722fa_fact ) interesting. Titled the "Talent Myth" he has some interesting insights into our current coporate 'culture'.
Cheers.
[This message has been edited by NoahVail (edited 09-02-2002).]
Sep 2, 2002, 4:20 pm
#26
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
In the above article they make mention of an essay called "The Dark Side of Charisma" written by psychologists Robert Hogan, Robert Raskin, and Dan Fazzini. In it, they describe exactly what I think is wrong with Air Canada and it's senior management:
Sound like anyone, or any airline, you know?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The most interesting of the three is the Narcissist, whose energy and self-confidence and charm lead him inexorably up the corporate ladder. Narcissists are terrible managers. They resist accepting suggestions, thinking it will make them appear weak, and they don't believe that others have anything useful to tell them. "Narcissists are biased to take more credit for success than is legitimate," Hogan and his co-authors write, and "biased to avoid acknowledging responsibility for their failures and shortcomings for the same reasons that they claim more success than is their due." Moreover:
Narcissists typically make judgments with greater confidence than other people . . . and, because their judgments are rendered with such conviction, other people tend to believe them and the narcissists become disproportionately more influential in group situations. Finally, because of their self-confidence and strong need for recognition, narcissists tend to "self-nominate"; consequently, when a leadership gap appears in a group or organization, the narcissists rush to fill it.</font>
Narcissists typically make judgments with greater confidence than other people . . . and, because their judgments are rendered with such conviction, other people tend to believe them and the narcissists become disproportionately more influential in group situations. Finally, because of their self-confidence and strong need for recognition, narcissists tend to "self-nominate"; consequently, when a leadership gap appears in a group or organization, the narcissists rush to fill it.</font>
Sep 2, 2002, 5:34 pm
#28
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"But then wouldn't it be prudent to already start upgrading premium customers? "
This happens more often than the last minute, apparent without reason upgrading you assume is the norm rather than the exception. Why do you continue, KH, to bash AC over how certain flights are handled, when all evidence shows that most of the time they do op upgrade elites at check-in?
We also know that from time to time, YVR-YYZ-YVR is overbooked and at gate upgrading -- after most people have been boarded -- becomes unavoidable. One of the reasons for this last minute situation is the uncertainty of connections, or onward passengers clearing Canadian Immigration off Asian flights. As a consequence, YVR is one of the more difficult gate stations to work.
This happens more often than the last minute, apparent without reason upgrading you assume is the norm rather than the exception. Why do you continue, KH, to bash AC over how certain flights are handled, when all evidence shows that most of the time they do op upgrade elites at check-in?
We also know that from time to time, YVR-YYZ-YVR is overbooked and at gate upgrading -- after most people have been boarded -- becomes unavoidable. One of the reasons for this last minute situation is the uncertainty of connections, or onward passengers clearing Canadian Immigration off Asian flights. As a consequence, YVR is one of the more difficult gate stations to work.
Sep 2, 2002, 6:13 pm
#29
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: SYD
Posts: 2,437
SH.
I know this has been discussed many times before...
Example:
So as a flyer I look around at all the FF plans and decide which one is best for me and my travel plans, in this instance it is AC and AP.
What was my reasoning, well I read that once I reach the 100k I will become SE and as part of that my reward for the business and loyalty is that I can upgrade on a H fare an higher 7 days before the flight.
To me this is a contract of understanding, I know what I will get for doing the things the airline asks....
Now, if the airline then decides to plan tricks and enronize the inventory, is this not a breach of our contract...
What erks me a little is that you are dupe into buying the higher fare thinking the rules will be played fair, then to have the airline cheat is not "is not cricket"
It could be handled a little different, lets assume for one minute AC manages to sell a J seat 7 days prior to the flight at full fare, but wait they have given 9 upgrades away and all the seats are gone.... irks!
If AC called me and asked if I was willing to change my dates either one forward or back to keep me in J, I would without hesitation, sure not all 9 would but I bet at least one would. In extreme case this might not work but its better than being a cheat.
I would one appreciate the honesty, and would feel better about this than sitting in the back...
I honestly feel that AC has come a long way in the customer service area in a very short time, I have seen a marked improvement in the GA and FA, they are still some that are shirkers, but on the whole well done.
Now to have the yield management team play around with members benefits is not good, someone should step in and take control of these wasters before they do more damage......Or come clean and let members make a educated judgment with there plan next year...
I know this has been discussed many times before...
Example:
So as a flyer I look around at all the FF plans and decide which one is best for me and my travel plans, in this instance it is AC and AP.
What was my reasoning, well I read that once I reach the 100k I will become SE and as part of that my reward for the business and loyalty is that I can upgrade on a H fare an higher 7 days before the flight.
To me this is a contract of understanding, I know what I will get for doing the things the airline asks....
Now, if the airline then decides to plan tricks and enronize the inventory, is this not a breach of our contract...
What erks me a little is that you are dupe into buying the higher fare thinking the rules will be played fair, then to have the airline cheat is not "is not cricket"
It could be handled a little different, lets assume for one minute AC manages to sell a J seat 7 days prior to the flight at full fare, but wait they have given 9 upgrades away and all the seats are gone.... irks!
If AC called me and asked if I was willing to change my dates either one forward or back to keep me in J, I would without hesitation, sure not all 9 would but I bet at least one would. In extreme case this might not work but its better than being a cheat.
I would one appreciate the honesty, and would feel better about this than sitting in the back...
I honestly feel that AC has come a long way in the customer service area in a very short time, I have seen a marked improvement in the GA and FA, they are still some that are shirkers, but on the whole well done.
Now to have the yield management team play around with members benefits is not good, someone should step in and take control of these wasters before they do more damage......Or come clean and let members make a educated judgment with there plan next year...
Sep 2, 2002, 6:22 pm
#30
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: YVR
Posts: 9,999
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This happens more often than the last minute, apparent without reason upgrading you assume is the norm rather than the exception. Why do you continue, KH, to bash AC over how certain flights are handled, when all evidence shows that most of the time they do op upgrade elites at check-in?</font>
I'm not saying they don't op upgrade elites at check-in, but rather it's more likely a matter of chance. And if these flights are perpetually a problem, then all the more reason to adjust their advance certificate upgrade protocol to reduce or eliminate the at-gate upgrade lottery.