sp4294

Well, apparently not on AC at least. I guess no one really flies TB on those routes... ;-)

CloudsBelow

Thought you might have toned it down a little after reading (and hopefully learning) the Ben*2 posts where, basically, everything we debated here was settled. Not sure of 1 issue where your stance has held true or been supported by anyone “in the know”
So, Now you’re here going on about Canada not being a free market. And, I assume, you feel Rouge doesn’t have to compete with AA/DL and others - That Rouge isn't impacted by 3 of the largest arirlines in the world each connecting every Rouge market in Canada with every destination served by Rouge (excluding Cuba, of course).
Sounds like someone was Googling hard this week. Can you give specific examples of each of your concepts and show how they are unique to AC/AC Rouge in Canada’s aviation scene and not present in similar Markets? You know, actual real-life facts rather than these broad strokes which don't say anything of consequence

CloudsBelow

Nor on any airline serving the routes as evidenced by ZERO reaction in the markets Rouged.

entropy

Euro Biz is essentially what you get for paying a full fare type ticket (Latitude).
I don't know who thinks its worth it, I certainly don't. US Airlines clearly see a market for a better than North American "F"/"J" type product in the NY-California, so its not all going downhill.

Furthermore, there is certainly a market for "F" in North America, which will largely disappear if its just E+.

Heffeh41

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Did+he+google+that%3F+

Nitehawk

So what's the best seat in a premium rouge on a 319? I find myself flying one today...

That just leaves the Rouge 767 and the 787 and I'll have flown the whole fleet.

AA_EXP09

+1
With more competition the transborder price gap could at least lessen (even if our market with perfectly free competition could not support the US prices due to economics of scale.)

gglave

The price gap is due to US air travel subsidies that are socialist friends to the south have in place that aren't present here.

So even if you had 10 airlines operating here you'd really only see a small price decrease.

If you want lower airfares in Canada then you've got to demand that the federal and provincial governments subsidize air travel like they do in the USA.

moorw003

Dunno about that. Air travel in Europe is pretty darn cheap, and I don't think we have these travel subsidies. Indeed, we have higher taxes and everything.

Although all the major carries, budget or otherwise went sardine class ages ago on domestic and European flights. I guess that's why I quite liked Rouge when I travelled it. Very much the norm for me. Indeed I didn't know what all the fuss was about. Certainly not a 1 star carries as Skytrax says

gglave

While it doesn't touch on Europe much, this thread has some interesting facts about the travel subsidies in the USA that result in lower airfares for the flying public -

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/canad...hos-blame.html

yulred

I don't think people are as upset about the product as they are about the price. At Ryanair or Easyjet prices, the product is quite alright. At AC mainline prices, its like paying $5 for a kit kat.

yulred

Really depends on what our air policy set out to achieve. Does it want people to travel more? Or travel less? Its an incoherent policy, but that probably just reflects the intellectual capacity of the people in charge of the policy. The statistics themselves are pretty damning. Consider this:

I think we can call it a comprehensive failure at this point, but I doubt its going to change because Canadian exceptionalism - the belief that we're somehow a unique country that has nothing to learn from others because we're the best at everything. Nowhere is this line of thinking more ingrained than in Ottawa - particularly in the Government.

Its not the best approach IMHO, but then again, we are country in a comfort zone - everything kind of sort of works, so be happy. Can we make it better? Undoubtedly. But why bother when everything is acceptable the way it is.

Rouge is merely a reflection of that. AC knows the high cost of operating here is going to keep transborder competitors away. As much as I dislike the Rouge product, especially at the prices its being sold at, there's no doubting that it is a smart business move. If I was working at AC, I would be fighting for it tooth and nail. If you have a market full of sheep, fleece them like there's no tomorrow.

Of course this is the same reason I support open skies. Some airlines may find operating in Canada too expensive; some may not. Let the latter come in - they will keep moves like this in check. How so? Well, take YYZ-BCN for example (that's Rouged, no?). If carriers come in and steal YYZ-AMS-DEL pax from KL, KL still has to sell that YYZ-AMS seat. It might opt to sell YYZ-AMS-BCN at a lower price than AC, putting price pressure and bringing that price down. Or at least offering more options.

I don't want to give too long an explanation, but you get the jist. Rouge is a terrible product at the price its being sold at. BUT, where are you going to go? Ottawa has decreed that it doesn't really want people flying; just doesn't like the idea. Over the past 15 years, I've been to the west coast once and to the east coast once - both on work. Would I go on my own dime? Nah, not worth it. I've been to more countries around the world than I've seen cities in Canada. And I doubt I'm the only one. I bet this country is full of people who've been to more US cities than Canadian ones. Or been to Cuba more times than they've been to cities on the other side of their own country.

That is a fail. And no, you don't need active subsidies a la the US to see a price drop. You just need to remove the taxes and rent.

moorw003

I do agree in part. But if you fly domestic/European, the feeling of being on the plane is the same whether you travel Ryanair or Lufthansa.

Basically, Ryanair cram you in like sardines, Lufthansa, BA, AF, KLM... their planes are just as crammed.. the norm is 17/30. With Ryanair I can fly from London to Paris for $50. With British Airways it'll probably cost $150. What gives? Same plane, same flight time.

BA will say they're better because you get checked luggage, a solid mileage programme. And that their overheads are so much higher. And as far as Ryanair goes, I should point out we can't compare eggs with eggs because they fly to really out of the way airports. BA go LHR/LGW to CDG on London Paris. Ryanair go from Stanstead to Beauvais. Both airports are 50 miles outside London and Paris... you'll probably spend $100 on the train getting into the city.

Rouge is pretty much the same as a typical European offering from one the established flag carriers. I totally understand where the frustration for Rouge comes from. For me, I find the advertising of it is somewhat laugable... every bullet point stating what it provides is basically a line that says we provide less than the mainline. A bit like super cheap car brochures that advertise "manually operated windows".

But, to truly cut costs and become a budget airline like Ryanair, they'd need to stop the altitude programme being permitted on their planes, stop free luggage allowances and fly to airports 100km away from the city.
Therefore, AC are right. Rouge is not a budget airline. It doesn't mean it's good, and for sure the 29' A319 was definitely 1 row too greedy, and should have maintained a more palatable J. But it's not the horror people make it out to be.

As it is, I would say the international Rouge operations into Europe (the ones I'm interested in) are competitive and are low cost. I can't speak for US and Sun though, that may be an entirely different matter.

AA_EXP09

and lounge access both directions if eligible, and fast track at LHR (again, if eligible)

yulred

Flying in Europe even on BA etc is significantly cheaper than in Canada. I just flew BA LGW-BCN-LGW for a staggering 99 GBP. It came with free food - something called a Chicken Harissa sandwich. Another example would be BRU-VIE - Friday evening to sunday evening for around $200 CAD on OS. Or BRU-TXL for around $230, again on a Fri-Sun eve run - peak time for the Eurocrats. Much cheaper if you don't fly on that date or time (all flights were packed) Or BRU-HAM for $230. And so on. You'd be bloody lucky to score tickets at that price to most places ex-Canada.

Of course, the obvious counterpoint is Easyjet, which operates mainline. Besides, Ryanair is increasingly at main airports - they just moved from Charleroi to BRU.

I think it also bears mentioning that YYZ isn't a cheap airport to get to, unless you're willing to spend 1 hour on a bus, and make two connections on public transit. $120 taxi costs are a given with any flight out of YYZ if you aren't driving.

Also, a typical EUropean flight is under 2 hours. 29" for 4 hours is cutting it. IAs for the longhaul product, it depends on where you want to go and the competition on that route. I wouldn't call 30" pitch, minimal IFE and 3" of recline competitive in any sense of the word - and certainly not at mainline prices, but hey, if it works for you, great.