Avoid the "Signature of Shame" With Android Pay/Apple Pay
#31
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BTW, more information about EMV is in this thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...re-2017-a.html
I don't find it shameful to have to sign for stuff. Kind of a pain, maybe. (Also, I suspect Canada sees enough American cards where the staff doesn't even give it a second thought. YMMV elsewhere, of course.)
It's all about money. There's simply not enough fraud from people losing their physical cards to justify the effort--especially since cards can be easily deactivated and replaced via online banking, mobile apps or even by calling the issuer. It was a much different story in Europe for example where most transactions weren't authorized in real time (and thus fraud couldn't be caught immediately). I doubt concerns about people forgetting their PINs would stop the banks if they could get some significant cost savings from implementing it.
And really, since we're moving towards cashier-less stores and online shopping anyway, chip itself probably won't have that long of a lifetime. Even long term use of NFC and/or contactless cards may be questionable. Here's an example of what I mean:
There's a full list here of "true" chip and PIN cards that are known by FT. I don't really count cards like the Arrival+ as true chip and PIN because signature's still asked for when possible.
Also, I have a few of the cards on that list and frankly, they're more of a hassle to use in the US than my chip and signature cards. Most places are fine but my spending habits take me to a lot of restaurants and other smaller businesses where they don't see many PIN cards and aren't set up to easily accept it. I've even had a few merchants flat out demand another form of payment instead of trying to hand the terminal to me.
Contactless cards used to be more common but they're now considered (possibly wrongly) by a lot of people to be highly insecure. Combined with the points above and the poor retailer acceptance, most banks don't really see spending the additional money per card (vs. the cost of an EMV card without contactless) as worthwhile. Encouraging stuff like Apple Pay is probably a better bet for them.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...re-2017-a.html
And really, since we're moving towards cashier-less stores and online shopping anyway, chip itself probably won't have that long of a lifetime. Even long term use of NFC and/or contactless cards may be questionable. Here's an example of what I mean:
Also, I have a few of the cards on that list and frankly, they're more of a hassle to use in the US than my chip and signature cards. Most places are fine but my spending habits take me to a lot of restaurants and other smaller businesses where they don't see many PIN cards and aren't set up to easily accept it. I've even had a few merchants flat out demand another form of payment instead of trying to hand the terminal to me.
Contactless cards used to be more common but they're now considered (possibly wrongly) by a lot of people to be highly insecure. Combined with the points above and the poor retailer acceptance, most banks don't really see spending the additional money per card (vs. the cost of an EMV card without contactless) as worthwhile. Encouraging stuff like Apple Pay is probably a better bet for them.
#32
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 419
"Signature of shame" is a bit strong, but I agree with the OP's point. I do feel a tiny bit of "here we go again" every time I insert my US card in a non-US terminal and I know I'm going to be outed as American when the signature slip emerges. The merchant is expecting me to punch some numbers into the terminal, but surprise...it's something special just for us Americans whose banks can't be bothered to go along with the rest of the world. I don't like to be the asterisk; I like to blend in.
(I guess I get outed anyway if a DCC option comes up, but that I can blame on the merchant's bank. Though the same principle applies: The process should be the same for everyone.)
In Holland I paid for a hotel and the hotelier said, "I like this card! No code!"
Seth
(I guess I get outed anyway if a DCC option comes up, but that I can blame on the merchant's bank. Though the same principle applies: The process should be the same for everyone.)
In Holland I paid for a hotel and the hotelier said, "I like this card! No code!"
Seth
#33
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#34
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 132
BTW, more information about EMV is in this thread:
snip...
Also, I have a few of the cards on that list and frankly, they're more of a hassle to use in the US than my chip and signature cards. Most places are fine but my spending habits take me to a lot of restaurants and other smaller businesses where they don't see many PIN cards and aren't set up to easily accept it. I've even had a few merchants flat out demand another form of payment instead of trying to hand the terminal to me.
Contactless cards used to be more common but they're now considered (possibly wrongly) by a lot of people to be highly insecure. Combined with the points above and the poor retailer acceptance, most banks don't really see spending the additional money per card (vs. the cost of an EMV card without contactless) as worthwhile. Encouraging stuff like Apple Pay is probably a better bet for them.
snip...
Also, I have a few of the cards on that list and frankly, they're more of a hassle to use in the US than my chip and signature cards. Most places are fine but my spending habits take me to a lot of restaurants and other smaller businesses where they don't see many PIN cards and aren't set up to easily accept it. I've even had a few merchants flat out demand another form of payment instead of trying to hand the terminal to me.
Contactless cards used to be more common but they're now considered (possibly wrongly) by a lot of people to be highly insecure. Combined with the points above and the poor retailer acceptance, most banks don't really see spending the additional money per card (vs. the cost of an EMV card without contactless) as worthwhile. Encouraging stuff like Apple Pay is probably a better bet for them.
That aside, I'd much prefer the adoption of systems like Apple Pay and Android Pay by more merchants in the US. Because Europe, Canada and Australia have had PIN (and moreover, contactless) terminals for a while, it's been great to simply use my phone to make purchases there. There are lots of US merchants that finally moved to accepting EMV cards and even have the terminal hardware to support contactless, but refuse acceptance of Apple Pay and Android Pay. Some even accepted Apple Pay upon getting the new terminal readers and then shortly after disabled it. I've read speculation this is because the merchant wants to track the spending habits of customers, but given that Apple Pay and Android Pay generate unique numbers per transaction, they're unable to do that. That theory confuses me as I've read that chip-and-pin also perform a tokenization mechanism, but clearly merchants are accepting those (mostly). Perhaps there are technical nuances that differentiate those mechanisms. I'm actually surprised in the number of places I routinely visit in the US that still require the purchaser to swipe, sometimes even when you can clearly see they've upgraded their hardware with a slot for sliding the card for the chip.
#35
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Erstwhile Accidental AC E35K
Posts: 2,916
So for Canadian cards being used at US gas stations, we now have the following proposals:
1) 00000
2) 99999
3) 12345
4) 3 digits from postal code plus 00
5) 3 digits from postal code plus 0.
How many tries before the card is swallowed by the machine?
Does anyone have a DEFINITIVE answer?
1) 00000
2) 99999
3) 12345
4) 3 digits from postal code plus 00
5) 3 digits from postal code plus 0.
How many tries before the card is swallowed by the machine?
Does anyone have a DEFINITIVE answer?
#36
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: AC MM E50 , Former SPG, now Marriott LT Plat
Posts: 6,263
#37
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 150
There are no terminals out there that are still undergoing certifications, even in the United States. End of story.
#38
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I, myself, have never run into the scenario you describe where a US merchant/restaurant refused a PIN card. They presumably just swipe instead; hence no hassle for me. I've only been to one US restaurant where they did use the chip and provided me the terminal to enter my PIN (and without complaint).
Counter service/fast food places, on the other hand, have tended to implement chip support at higher rates. Some of those hide their terminals or put them out of reach of customers, unfortunately. If you're lucky, they'll know how to force the terminal to allow the card to be swiped or know how to manually enter the card number if the terminal requires a PIN.
(Of course, if fees were lowered, /r/churning and FT's credit card forums would likely not be pleased.)
Maybe with EMVco certification of the terminals themselves, but a lot of stores still need to have their entire setups certified by the major card brands. I find it difficult to believe that stores spent significant amounts of money buying new equipment before the normal replacement period (and while the older stuff was still supported) only to decide that they didn't want to take advantage of any new functionality.
#39
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 132
Do you know why the merchants selected "False"? Is it maybe the default? Sheer ignorance? Given that the banking laws were updated clearly stating that merchants would have to (solely?) bear the cost of fraudulent cards if they didn't adopt EMV, it's bewildering to me. I've talked to employees of stores where they're still just swiping who know that, so it's difficult to comprehend why mgmt or owners don't address that.
#40
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Do you know why the merchants selected "False"? Is it maybe the default? Sheer ignorance? Given that the banking laws were updated clearly stating that merchants would have to (solely?) bear the cost of fraudulent cards if they didn't adopt EMV, it's bewildering to me. I've talked to employees of stores where they're still just swiping who know that, so it's difficult to comprehend why mgmt or owners don't address that.
#41
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 150
Do you know why the merchants selected "False"? Is it maybe the default? Sheer ignorance? Given that the banking laws were updated clearly stating that merchants would have to (solely?) bear the cost of fraudulent cards if they didn't adopt EMV, it's bewildering to me. I've talked to employees of stores where they're still just swiping who know that, so it's difficult to comprehend why mgmt or owners don't address that.
#43
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It's because they think EMV is too slow and that the customers will have panic attacks from the inability to swipe or see their cards being swiped. And note that most Americans do not know how to use their EMV enabled cards without assistance, so that's a major problem to contend with.
Contactless (which has low use in the US) is possibly a luxury feature. Something that's effectively required to not be liable for fraudulent charges isn't.
#44
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
Programs: Nothing anymore after 20 years
Posts: 6,900
I can tell that two US issued cards (both from Chase) and five Singapore issued cards (from three different banks) which are chip and signature do not have PIN as optional/second method.
I had above experience with my US/Singapore issued cards at gas stations in NZ and train machines in Europe outside of airports and major train stations. Machine asks to enter PIN and no matter what you enter, transaction is failed.